4 ms·

I agree. People often mistake the two domains of reality. Just because the physical reality is given and closer to us, we can't rule out other forms of existenc

I agree. People often mistake the two domains of reality. Just because the physical reality is given and closer to us, we can't rule out other forms of existence. And say that, somehow, a percentage of humans had some sort of experience of the supernatural. Then they pass on that information. Some believe them, some don't. It's a matter of confidence. Some of the ones that just believed in the first place, eventually get to also have those spiritual experiences. One could also make conjectures about the nature of those spiritual experiences: that they were illusions, hallucinations, or real experiences. But it can not be objectively verified. And there will always be a percentage of people what will not believe. Taking the exigence of objective, material verification of experiments in Physics to a field of subjective, psychological/spiritual experiences, seems to me to be a mistake.

derleth 15y ago
> Just because the physical reality is given and closer to us, we can't rule out other forms of existence. We can to the same extent I can rule out the existence of one million dollars in my bank account right now. > And say that, somehow, a percentage of humans had some sort of experience of the supernatural. If this is distinguishable from schizophrenia, they should be studied in earnest and learned from. > But it can not be objectively verified. Yes, it can. > Taking the exigence of objective, material verification of experiments in Physics to a field of subjective, psychological/spiritual experiences, seems to me to be a mistake. No. All reality is founded on the same laws. If there was something special about consciousness, it would have repercussions on every other facet of existence, and it would need to be studied on those terms.
- cristianpascu 15y ago
  If there is not a million of dollars in your account, can you infer that there is not a million dollars in my account?
  - derleth 15y ago
    > If there is not a million of dollars in your account, can you infer that there is not a million dollars in my account? I can infer that it's highly unlikely and notice that you've so far done nothing to demonstrate the existence of the million dollars.
- slurgfest 15y ago
  There is at least one obvious kind of existence which isn't physical, which is the sort of existence which the things studied in math have got. That isn't particularly controversial because the 'existence' of even numbers is logically a very different thing from the 'existence' of dodo birds, or 500-foot-tall Schwinn bicycles, or Inspector Gadget. The question of whether mathematicians are schizophrenic or mathematics represents some massive failing of science just doesn't arise because it is already well understood what is being talked about. Often the problem with theology is that we don't understand and even refuse to get clear on what it is we mean to be talking about; maybe we are just so hot to reach emotional and political conclusions...
  - mangodrunk 15y ago
    "That isn't particularly controversial because the 'existence' of even numbers is logically a very different thing from the 'existence' of dodo birds, or 500-foot-tall Schwinn bicycles, or Inspector Gadget." That's a concept, what do you mean by existence? Does that mean Harry Potter and Inspector Gadget exist? I don't think you're using the word "existence" correctly. I may be wrong in knowing what you're arguing as it was hard for me to parse what you wrote. I'm sorry if I misunderstood it.
    - slurgfest 15y ago
      If I'm using the word "exist" wrong (which I am happy to admit) then I certainly want to learn how I should be using it, for sure. For the record and hopefully to reduce confusion, I don't think that Inspector Gadget (the man) exists. But there is still something it would be for him to exist, presumably; it just doesn't happen to be true. Suppose I tell you there is (exists) a cheeseburger in the bag. You want to know if that's true, so you look in the bag. What do you look for? Depends on what you expect a cheeseburger to look like: probably you expect a physical object within a certain range of sizes, with certain parts of certain compositions, etc. Now same story but meatball sub. Well, the things to look for are different in some ways. Now same story but even number greater than 10,000. There isn't a bag you can look in for this. etc. Dodo birds used to exist, don't any more. Checking for them is pretty different from checking for numbers or cheeseburgers in a bag. Sherlock Holmes never existed. But you probably have at least some idea what it would mean if he did, and this is tied to how you'd check to see if he did exist. The idea here is that 'exists' doesn't seem (to me) to be one operator which always does the same thing; it seems to be very well bound to whatever it is we are talking about the existence or nonexistence of.

derleth 15y ago

> Just because the physical reality is given and closer to us, we can't rule out other forms of existence. We can to the same extent I can rule out the existence of one million dollars in my bank account right now. > And say that, somehow, a percentage of humans had some sort of experience of the supernatural. If this is distinguishable from schizophrenia, they should be studied in earnest and learned from. > But it can not be objectively verified. Yes, it can. > Taking the exigence of objective, material verification of experiments in Physics to a field of subjective, psychological/spiritual experiences, seems to me to be a mistake. No. All reality is founded on the same laws. If there was something special about consciousness, it would have repercussions on every other facet of existence, and it would need to be studied on those terms.

cristianpascu 15y ago
If there is not a million of dollars in your account, can you infer that there is not a million dollars in my account?
- derleth 15y ago
  > If there is not a million of dollars in your account, can you infer that there is not a million dollars in my account? I can infer that it's highly unlikely and notice that you've so far done nothing to demonstrate the existence of the million dollars.
slurgfest 15y ago
There is at least one obvious kind of existence which isn't physical, which is the sort of existence which the things studied in math have got. That isn't particularly controversial because the 'existence' of even numbers is logically a very different thing from the 'existence' of dodo birds, or 500-foot-tall Schwinn bicycles, or Inspector Gadget. The question of whether mathematicians are schizophrenic or mathematics represents some massive failing of science just doesn't arise because it is already well understood what is being talked about. Often the problem with theology is that we don't understand and even refuse to get clear on what it is we mean to be talking about; maybe we are just so hot to reach emotional and political conclusions...
- mangodrunk 15y ago
  "That isn't particularly controversial because the 'existence' of even numbers is logically a very different thing from the 'existence' of dodo birds, or 500-foot-tall Schwinn bicycles, or Inspector Gadget." That's a concept, what do you mean by existence? Does that mean Harry Potter and Inspector Gadget exist? I don't think you're using the word "existence" correctly. I may be wrong in knowing what you're arguing as it was hard for me to parse what you wrote. I'm sorry if I misunderstood it.
  - slurgfest 15y ago
    If I'm using the word "exist" wrong (which I am happy to admit) then I certainly want to learn how I should be using it, for sure. For the record and hopefully to reduce confusion, I don't think that Inspector Gadget (the man) exists. But there is still something it would be for him to exist, presumably; it just doesn't happen to be true. Suppose I tell you there is (exists) a cheeseburger in the bag. You want to know if that's true, so you look in the bag. What do you look for? Depends on what you expect a cheeseburger to look like: probably you expect a physical object within a certain range of sizes, with certain parts of certain compositions, etc. Now same story but meatball sub. Well, the things to look for are different in some ways. Now same story but even number greater than 10,000. There isn't a bag you can look in for this. etc. Dodo birds used to exist, don't any more. Checking for them is pretty different from checking for numbers or cheeseburgers in a bag. Sherlock Holmes never existed. But you probably have at least some idea what it would mean if he did, and this is tied to how you'd check to see if he did exist. The idea here is that 'exists' doesn't seem (to me) to be one operator which always does the same thing; it seems to be very well bound to whatever it is we are talking about the existence or nonexistence of.