6 ms·

TSA agents forced crying 4-year-old to undergo pat-down after hug

55 points by rickdale 15y ago

read_wharf 15y ago
The worst thing we've learned is that all we have to say is "we followed standard procedures" and we get a free pass, regardless of how egregious standard procedures or implementations may be.
- rhizome 15y ago
  It would be nice if the reporters put some energy into either asking or researching what "standard procedures" are, and then put that into the story so that the reader might be educated about the rules and policies that we all live under.
  - petrilli 15y ago
    You are presuming that the TSA will ever reveal what "standard procedures" are. They're whatever justifies their current behavior, but you can't know, you dirty hippie, because that's national security.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      Sure, but they can ask, and they can say they asked and weren't answered.
- noonespecial 15y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
- wpietri 15y ago
  Next time I have to deal with a large, dumb corporation I'm going to write up some policies of my own in advance. That way when they insist I do something dumb I can say, e.g., "I'm sorry, it's our policy that we never reboot computers without written documentation of the necessity."
- asmithmd1 15y ago
  I think the TSA clerks here can legitimately be charged with child molestation - follow my logic: When I have been patted down by TSA they are always careful to ask for my consent before they sexual assault me. Since I am past the age of consent I can give it to them. Here the TSA is relying on the parents to provide the consent to sexually assault their child. I don't think a parent can legally give that consent. If I were a DA I would charge both the TSA agent and the parent with criminal child abuse.
  - viro101 15y ago
    Under your logic teens can't be arrested.(you get patted down(aka molested) in the process)
  - lurker14 15y ago
    The TSA doesn't ask for your consent, they ask for you to understand what they are going to do. They pull out a little card and say "I am required to inform you that ..." It's obviously not sexual assault under law, since the searches are explicitly authorized by law. Even if the searches as designed were found to be unconstitutional or contradicting other law, that in no way would subject an individual agent following that law to prosecution under the government that gave the agent the orders.
viro101 15y ago
So We shouldn't have pat-downs for kids? this article reminds me of the saying "Security is only as good as your lowest hanging fruit".
- wpietri 15y ago
  Your desire to touch my low-hanging fruit is the problem here.
  - viro101 15y ago
    If certain people are exempt from pat-downs then pat-downs are useless.
    - josephcooney 15y ago
      Pat downs ARE useless.
      - gscott 15y ago
        Especially when airline airplanes are also used for shipping. No need to even show up. "With over 3,400 flights a day to Southwest destinations coast to coast, Southwest Airlines® Cargo has the flight you need, when you need it." http://www.swacargo.com/swacargo/home.htm http://www.swacargo.com/swacargo/home.htm http://www.delta.com/business_programs_services/delta_cargo/index.jsp http://www.delta.com/business_programs_services/delta_cargo/...
    - munin 15y ago
      okay. if the terrorists stuff a 4yr old child full of explosives and blow me up, they win. I give up. not being groped in public is worth being blown up.
      - tkahn6 15y ago
        I don't know if you're being facetious but attaching bombs to children is nothing new. It happened in Vietnam and it happens in Iraq.
georgieporgie 15y ago
Isabella had just learned about “stranger danger” at school What? Does she use a time traveling bus to visit 1990? I thought schools had wised up to the fact that virtually all harm to children (excluding traffic fatalities) is brought people the child knows. I hate the TSA, but I see the dark humor of fear mongering on both sides of this story: Americans' fear of terrorists and children's instilled fear of strangers. As a traveler, I'm tired of the former, and as an adult male who happens to like children and strikes up conversations with strangers, I'm tired of the latter.
- rollypolly 15y ago
  If I was more cynical, I'd think the TSA was a program to teach the next generation of Americans that privacy is an archaic concept.
  - greyfade 15y ago
    I am that cynical. Seeing pictures of kids holding up signs that say "Thank you for protecting us!" next to their proud, deluded parents at an airport, everything about the TSA makes me sick. Edit: And then, this: http://boingboing.net/2012/04/25/tsa-security-screeners-in-la.html http://boingboing.net/2012/04/25/tsa-security-screeners-in-l...
- jsight 15y ago
  +1 I see plenty of blame to go around here, actually. The TSA shouldn't have required a pat-down, IMO. But we don't know exactly how this happened, and how should the TSA have known that the child would go into hysterics over this? Once the screaming starts, a lot of behaviors can change in pretty irrational ways due to the increased tension of the situation. The fact that the parents involved lost control of the situation with the child running away did not make things any easier. I'm not saying the agents should have handled it this way (I personally think they should not have), just that it seems like a series of unfortunate breakdowns on the part of several people. There are far bigger problems with the TSA than this, IMO.
  - 15y ago
plink 15y ago
"She said TSA agents had shouted at the girl, telling her to calm down and saying the suspect wasn’t cooperating." What suspect? Suspected of what? This kind of pervasive cop-speak strips language of relevant meaning.
- lurker14 15y ago
  Oh, cop-speak preserve deep meaning. It clearly communicates the mindset of the speaker, which is an important part of language. When considered in context (not spoken by a cop), it telegraphs the mental illness of the speaker.
shabble 15y ago
My suspicion is that, in the (presumed) absence of actual terrorists, the screeners are tested using 'secret shopper' style undercover people. They might try a wide range of scenarios, from 'oops, I forgot I left that gun in my trouser pocket'[1] through to 'can little Molly sneak an extra-large toothpaste?' Anyone failing the test gets demoted/retrained/shouted at, until all compassion and common sense is burned out. [1] From what I recall of the recent ex-TSA director, they fail even the most egregious of suitcase weapon plants, including firearms. Edit: It doesn't appear to get much of a mention in Kip Hawley's Editorial in the WSJ[2], but http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-screeners/story?id=12412458 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-scre... mentions figures of easily 50+%, from 2010 [2] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303815404577335783535660546.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230381540457733...
- ajross 15y ago
  I have a hard time believing that they'd be doing testing in live airports with real (or real-looking) firearms. It's just not nearly controlled enough to be safe. Imagine a wackjob grabbing the improvised knife they always carry in their bag and trying to be a hero.
  - shabble 15y ago
    I edited my original post to include a link to some 2010 stats, and just found http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-DFW-Body-Scanner-With-a-Gun-116497568.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-DFW... from sept '11 as well. I'm not sure how they could run realistic tests in any other way than with (simulated) contraband in a public screening queue, ideally with different people and situations each time.
    - lurker14 15y ago
      They insert simulated images of contraband in the scanner monitors.
bo1024 15y ago
Honestly I find the victim's quotes and attitudes toward this incident very disturbing. For example: > claiming TSA treated her daughter “no better than if she had been a terrorist.” > “There was no common sense and there was no compassion,” Croft said. “That was our biggest fault with the whole thing — not that they are following security procedures, because I understand that they have to do that.” So basically, it's fine to treat terrorists this way, just not me and my family, because we aren't terrorists (but that Muslim family over there might be). Similarly, I don't mind following security procedures, because those are all for the good, I just don't think they should apply to people like us. How can they fail to see that this is how the system works? This is what it is designed to do. There was no mistake made here. This is what you voted for. No. The problem is not in how we apply these invasive, wasteful, and humiliating security procedures. The security procedures are the problem. The problem is not in who in particular is labeled a suspected terrorist. It's how we treat people. I think the company I keep makes me think that everyone must share my perspective that the TSA is a huge waste of money and time -- makes me forget that a lot of Americans actually believe these things are making them safer and working as intended, and that incidents like this are just small accidents when the security apparatus gets turned on the wrong people. It's a sobering realization.
- lurker14 15y ago
  Only 535 Americans were invited to vote on the TSA.
- zacharycohn 15y ago
  No one voted for the TSA. The American public had no input into the policies put into place. We can elect officials, but many of those officials were already in office when they chose to create the TSA.
- dromidas 15y ago
  This is a situation that has many different points... A) Yes the grandmother's attitude was biased with those quotes and further highlights why America is in this situation in the first place. Americans and terrorists are both made up of people who believe stupid crap and treat others based on those beliefs. This is not a situation we can fix. B) Yes the TSA Agents actually acted like they should have. If I was trying to smuggle something in I would certainly have a kid along to go through security first and then trained such that were my smuggling attempt to fail to attempt some sort of backup plan by running up to me distressed to grab the item from me. So their reaction was entirely smart to re-screen her. This is also not a situation that could be fixed. C) This whole incident further proves that their process is just not going to work like they want it to. On paper its great, but in reality its just not going to fly. When their detection capabilities are reliant upon either shooting X rays or molestation you're going to end up pissing off enough people to get your company voted off the corporate island. This is a situation that we can fix, get rid of a lot of the security theatre and point B and C goes away.
gry 15y ago
I flew for the first time last weekend since the TSA implemented the pat-downs. I went through the backscatter while the TSA scanned my bags, one being a stylus with a substantial aluminum shaft. I was paranoid it would be deemed a weapon. During the screening, I witnessed a pregnant woman go through an examination. I do not feel safer. In fact, my fear has shifted.
rogerbinns 15y ago
(My opinion is that the whole system is stupid, pointless and performs some theatre at the windows while the doors are wide open. Someone determined will be able to get through, or just attack somewhere else. All you want to do is catch the idiots, which pre-911 screening did just fine. The response to terrorism is to not be terrorized and to live well, not to amplify the little things they actually do.) We should be very careful about "common sense" and screeners making their own minds up about things. It is far better that they follow a consistent set of rules. This for example is why the liquids rule is a good one from a screening point of view. There is no discretion left to the screeners and they don't have to entertain arguments about which liquids are harmless and which aren't, types of liquids, size of containers etc. Think carefully - do you really want each screener enforcing their own views? How trivial do you think they would be to outsmart by someone determined? The American political system especially as espoused in the media where trivial things are inflated to make stories, there is relentless hounding of politicians who are rational, it is cheaper to have controversial talking heads instead of research and reporting, someone always has to be to blame, and issues are presented as black or white soundbites means that no politician can reasonably try to rein in the system or have detailed discussions on risks, spending, tradeoffs etc.
Zephyr314 15y ago
It looks like the trick is just to buy your way through: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-screeners-20120426,0,4508192.story http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-screeners-201204...
dmfdmf 15y ago
Where do you get 50,000 TSA agents to do this sort of thing? That is the question that has to be asked by all Americans; http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-us-governance http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-...
homosaur 15y ago
This is what happens when you give minimum wage idiots that would normally be working at McDonalds fake badges and power. I know for a fact there are a few good, knowledgeable, professional TSA people at every airport, but the majority of them around the country are not. The majority of them are completely incompetent, completely unqualified, and glad they get to tell someone what do for 8 hours.
huhtenberg 15y ago
First candidate to promise to dismantle TSA will sweep the presidential election.
pyoung 15y ago
Just out of curiosity, can someone explain to me why TSA articles tend to make their way to the front page of HN. I know there are some pretty random topics that HN'ers are interested in, but usually there is at least some small link to tech/startups/hacking. Not sure what the connection is here.
- drucken 15y ago
  Security.
Mz 15y ago
On the one hand, the TSA agents could have been more sensitive. On the other hand, the parents could probably have prevented the whole thing by not letting the girl run off to hug grandma. My dad was career miltary and so was my ex. I spent much of my life around environments where security was taken seriously. You just don't let kids goof off in such environments. Somewhat similarly, I also grew up with shotguns hung on the wall above my parents' bed. They were not loaded but there were two shells laying in the groove on the barrel so they could be loaded quickly if necessary. The rest of the ammo was locked up in dad's closet and kids did not go in dad's closet. Guns were not something children played with and there were no accidents because the adults in the house just did not allow it to happen.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
junto 15y ago
They should be charged with harassment and physical assault of a child.

55 points by rickdale 15y ago

The worst thing we've learned is that all we have to say is "we followed standard procedures" and we get a free pass, regardless of how egregious standard procedures or implementations may be.

rhizome 15y ago
It would be nice if the reporters put some energy into either asking or researching what "standard procedures" are, and then put that into the story so that the reader might be educated about the rules and policies that we all live under.
- petrilli 15y ago
  You are presuming that the TSA will ever reveal what "standard procedures" are. They're whatever justifies their current behavior, but you can't know, you dirty hippie, because that's national security.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Sure, but they can ask, and they can say they asked and weren't answered.
noonespecial 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
wpietri 15y ago
Next time I have to deal with a large, dumb corporation I'm going to write up some policies of my own in advance. That way when they insist I do something dumb I can say, e.g., "I'm sorry, it's our policy that we never reboot computers without written documentation of the necessity."
asmithmd1 15y ago
I think the TSA clerks here can legitimately be charged with child molestation - follow my logic: When I have been patted down by TSA they are always careful to ask for my consent before they sexual assault me. Since I am past the age of consent I can give it to them. Here the TSA is relying on the parents to provide the consent to sexually assault their child. I don't think a parent can legally give that consent. If I were a DA I would charge both the TSA agent and the parent with criminal child abuse.
- viro101 15y ago
  Under your logic teens can't be arrested.(you get patted down(aka molested) in the process)
- lurker14 15y ago
  The TSA doesn't ask for your consent, they ask for you to understand what they are going to do. They pull out a little card and say "I am required to inform you that ..." It's obviously not sexual assault under law, since the searches are explicitly authorized by law. Even if the searches as designed were found to be unconstitutional or contradicting other law, that in no way would subject an individual agent following that law to prosecution under the government that gave the agent the orders.

viro101 15y ago

So We shouldn't have pat-downs for kids? this article reminds me of the saying "Security is only as good as your lowest hanging fruit".

wpietri 15y ago
Your desire to touch my low-hanging fruit is the problem here.
- viro101 15y ago
  If certain people are exempt from pat-downs then pat-downs are useless.
  - josephcooney 15y ago
    Pat downs ARE useless.
    - gscott 15y ago
      Especially when airline airplanes are also used for shipping. No need to even show up. "With over 3,400 flights a day to Southwest destinations coast to coast, Southwest Airlines® Cargo has the flight you need, when you need it." http://www.swacargo.com/swacargo/home.htm http://www.swacargo.com/swacargo/home.htm http://www.delta.com/business_programs_services/delta_cargo/index.jsp http://www.delta.com/business_programs_services/delta_cargo/...
  - munin 15y ago
    okay. if the terrorists stuff a 4yr old child full of explosives and blow me up, they win. I give up. not being groped in public is worth being blown up.
    - tkahn6 15y ago
      I don't know if you're being facetious but attaching bombs to children is nothing new. It happened in Vietnam and it happens in Iraq.

georgieporgie 15y ago

Isabella had just learned about “stranger danger” at school What? Does she use a time traveling bus to visit 1990? I thought schools had wised up to the fact that virtually all harm to children (excluding traffic fatalities) is brought people the child knows. I hate the TSA, but I see the dark humor of fear mongering on both sides of this story: Americans' fear of terrorists and children's instilled fear of strangers. As a traveler, I'm tired of the former, and as an adult male who happens to like children and strikes up conversations with strangers, I'm tired of the latter.

rollypolly 15y ago
If I was more cynical, I'd think the TSA was a program to teach the next generation of Americans that privacy is an archaic concept.
- greyfade 15y ago
  I am that cynical. Seeing pictures of kids holding up signs that say "Thank you for protecting us!" next to their proud, deluded parents at an airport, everything about the TSA makes me sick. Edit: And then, this: http://boingboing.net/2012/04/25/tsa-security-screeners-in-la.html http://boingboing.net/2012/04/25/tsa-security-screeners-in-l...
jsight 15y ago
+1 I see plenty of blame to go around here, actually. The TSA shouldn't have required a pat-down, IMO. But we don't know exactly how this happened, and how should the TSA have known that the child would go into hysterics over this? Once the screaming starts, a lot of behaviors can change in pretty irrational ways due to the increased tension of the situation. The fact that the parents involved lost control of the situation with the child running away did not make things any easier. I'm not saying the agents should have handled it this way (I personally think they should not have), just that it seems like a series of unfortunate breakdowns on the part of several people. There are far bigger problems with the TSA than this, IMO.
- 15y ago

plink 15y ago

"She said TSA agents had shouted at the girl, telling her to calm down and saying the suspect wasn’t cooperating." What suspect? Suspected of what? This kind of pervasive cop-speak strips language of relevant meaning.

lurker14 15y ago
Oh, cop-speak preserve deep meaning. It clearly communicates the mindset of the speaker, which is an important part of language. When considered in context (not spoken by a cop), it telegraphs the mental illness of the speaker.

shabble 15y ago

My suspicion is that, in the (presumed) absence of actual terrorists, the screeners are tested using 'secret shopper' style undercover people. They might try a wide range of scenarios, from 'oops, I forgot I left that gun in my trouser pocket'[1] through to 'can little Molly sneak an extra-large toothpaste?' Anyone failing the test gets demoted/retrained/shouted at, until all compassion and common sense is burned out. [1] From what I recall of the recent ex-TSA director, they fail even the most egregious of suitcase weapon plants, including firearms. Edit: It doesn't appear to get much of a mention in Kip Hawley's Editorial in the WSJ[2], but http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-screeners/story?id=12412458 http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-scre... mentions figures of easily 50+%, from 2010 [2] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303815404577335783535660546.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230381540457733...

ajross 15y ago
I have a hard time believing that they'd be doing testing in live airports with real (or real-looking) firearms. It's just not nearly controlled enough to be safe. Imagine a wackjob grabbing the improvised knife they always carry in their bag and trying to be a hero.
- shabble 15y ago
  I edited my original post to include a link to some 2010 stats, and just found http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-DFW-Body-Scanner-With-a-Gun-116497568.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-DFW... from sept '11 as well. I'm not sure how they could run realistic tests in any other way than with (simulated) contraband in a public screening queue, ideally with different people and situations each time.
  - lurker14 15y ago
    They insert simulated images of contraband in the scanner monitors.

bo1024 15y ago

Honestly I find the victim's quotes and attitudes toward this incident very disturbing. For example: > claiming TSA treated her daughter “no better than if she had been a terrorist.” > “There was no common sense and there was no compassion,” Croft said. “That was our biggest fault with the whole thing — not that they are following security procedures, because I understand that they have to do that.” So basically, it's fine to treat terrorists this way, just not me and my family, because we aren't terrorists (but that Muslim family over there might be). Similarly, I don't mind following security procedures, because those are all for the good, I just don't think they should apply to people like us. How can they fail to see that this is how the system works? This is what it is designed to do. There was no mistake made here. This is what you voted for. No. The problem is not in how we apply these invasive, wasteful, and humiliating security procedures. The security procedures are the problem. The problem is not in who in particular is labeled a suspected terrorist. It's how we treat people. I think the company I keep makes me think that everyone must share my perspective that the TSA is a huge waste of money and time -- makes me forget that a lot of Americans actually believe these things are making them safer and working as intended, and that incidents like this are just small accidents when the security apparatus gets turned on the wrong people. It's a sobering realization.

lurker14 15y ago
Only 535 Americans were invited to vote on the TSA.
zacharycohn 15y ago
No one voted for the TSA. The American public had no input into the policies put into place. We can elect officials, but many of those officials were already in office when they chose to create the TSA.
dromidas 15y ago
This is a situation that has many different points... A) Yes the grandmother's attitude was biased with those quotes and further highlights why America is in this situation in the first place. Americans and terrorists are both made up of people who believe stupid crap and treat others based on those beliefs. This is not a situation we can fix. B) Yes the TSA Agents actually acted like they should have. If I was trying to smuggle something in I would certainly have a kid along to go through security first and then trained such that were my smuggling attempt to fail to attempt some sort of backup plan by running up to me distressed to grab the item from me. So their reaction was entirely smart to re-screen her. This is also not a situation that could be fixed. C) This whole incident further proves that their process is just not going to work like they want it to. On paper its great, but in reality its just not going to fly. When their detection capabilities are reliant upon either shooting X rays or molestation you're going to end up pissing off enough people to get your company voted off the corporate island. This is a situation that we can fix, get rid of a lot of the security theatre and point B and C goes away.

gry 15y ago

I flew for the first time last weekend since the TSA implemented the pat-downs. I went through the backscatter while the TSA scanned my bags, one being a stylus with a substantial aluminum shaft. I was paranoid it would be deemed a weapon. During the screening, I witnessed a pregnant woman go through an examination. I do not feel safer. In fact, my fear has shifted.

rogerbinns 15y ago

(My opinion is that the whole system is stupid, pointless and performs some theatre at the windows while the doors are wide open. Someone determined will be able to get through, or just attack somewhere else. All you want to do is catch the idiots, which pre-911 screening did just fine. The response to terrorism is to not be terrorized and to live well, not to amplify the little things they actually do.) We should be very careful about "common sense" and screeners making their own minds up about things. It is far better that they follow a consistent set of rules. This for example is why the liquids rule is a good one from a screening point of view. There is no discretion left to the screeners and they don't have to entertain arguments about which liquids are harmless and which aren't, types of liquids, size of containers etc. Think carefully - do you really want each screener enforcing their own views? How trivial do you think they would be to outsmart by someone determined? The American political system especially as espoused in the media where trivial things are inflated to make stories, there is relentless hounding of politicians who are rational, it is cheaper to have controversial talking heads instead of research and reporting, someone always has to be to blame, and issues are presented as black or white soundbites means that no politician can reasonably try to rein in the system or have detailed discussions on risks, spending, tradeoffs etc.

Zephyr314 15y ago

It looks like the trick is just to buy your way through: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-screeners-20120426,0,4508192.story http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-screeners-201204...

dmfdmf 15y ago

Where do you get 50,000 TSA agents to do this sort of thing? That is the question that has to be asked by all Americans; http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-us-governance http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-...

homosaur 15y ago

This is what happens when you give minimum wage idiots that would normally be working at McDonalds fake badges and power. I know for a fact there are a few good, knowledgeable, professional TSA people at every airport, but the majority of them around the country are not. The majority of them are completely incompetent, completely unqualified, and glad they get to tell someone what do for 8 hours.

huhtenberg 15y ago

First candidate to promise to dismantle TSA will sweep the presidential election.

pyoung 15y ago

Just out of curiosity, can someone explain to me why TSA articles tend to make their way to the front page of HN. I know there are some pretty random topics that HN'ers are interested in, but usually there is at least some small link to tech/startups/hacking. Not sure what the connection is here.

drucken 15y ago
Security.

Mz 15y ago

On the one hand, the TSA agents could have been more sensitive. On the other hand, the parents could probably have prevented the whole thing by not letting the girl run off to hug grandma. My dad was career miltary and so was my ex. I spent much of my life around environments where security was taken seriously. You just don't let kids goof off in such environments. Somewhat similarly, I also grew up with shotguns hung on the wall above my parents' bed. They were not loaded but there were two shells laying in the groove on the barrel so they could be loaded quickly if necessary. The rest of the ammo was locked up in dad's closet and kids did not go in dad's closet. Guns were not something children played with and there were no accidents because the adults in the house just did not allow it to happen.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

junto 15y ago

They should be charged with harassment and physical assault of a child.