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You’re talking about things being simplistic while characterizing everyone who is on the other side as a cartoon villain? Maybe look in the mirror. I’m not say

You’re talking about things being simplistic while characterizing everyone who is on the other side as a cartoon villain? Maybe look in the mirror. I’m not saying the houthis are good or right, but the world is a lot more complicated than “the US thinks these people are terrorists”.

taeric 3y ago
The cartoon villain is them literally taking up the nazi salute. On purpose. And their flag. If you have evidence that those are misrepresented, that is one thing. So far, I have not seen evidence that that is the case.
- charred_patina 3y ago
  Is it not cartoon villainy when Israel has killed 23,000 people indiscriminately? Or Israeli real estate companies post pictures of planned beachside condos photoshopped onto rubble in Gaza? Or when Israel murdered 3 of the hostages because they assumed they were unarmed Palestinian civilians? All of the groups in this region (and the world at large), government or not, are extremely evil and capable of unimaginable violence. You cannot pick and choose to ignore the evils of one group because it is politically beneficial. Well, you can, but that's hypocritical. The point is that if your goal is to keep the region stable, maximize your influence, and minimize deaths, you have to treat everyone according to the leverage they have. Not the leverage you wish they had based on your moral judgements. The US media overwhelmingly portrays this as Israel being picked on "for no reason" by all of the savages in the region, and this hampers people in the west's ability to look at the situation objectively.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Deflect, much? I can call out a group of cartoonishly villainous terrorists without having to condone any other behavior. I get that you don't like Israel. I don't know why I would necessarily want to change your mind there, all told. I can say you should not let that drive you to such allies as terrorists that attack trade ships.
    - charred_patina 3y ago
      > Deflect, much? I can call out a group of cartoonishly villainous terrorists without having to condone any other behavior. I am not deflecting, my point has been consistent across the whole thread. All of the power players in the region are bad people. However, you have to come to the table with them as they are. It's hubris to just think because the Houthis are bad guys then we don't have to take them seriously. Obviously the best way to stop these attacks is to force Israel to ceasefire (it's also the moral option), but many people wouldn't want to capitulate to pressure from "terrorists".
      - fiestaman 3y ago
        Do you think the Houthis would stop their attacks if Israel reached a ceasefire?
        charred_patina 3y ago
        I think they would. You would need to have them sign an agreement (as well as Israel). If they violated this agreement, then sure, the USA could be justified in taking military action. However, painting them as savages and approaching it with a "bomb them back to the stone age" mindset isn't helpful. You'd think after 20+ years we would have learned this lesson.
- comte7092 3y ago
  >literally taking up the nazi salute. All I’ve can find is one video, not the same thing as them pledging allegiance to the Nazi cause. The flag uses a common rhetorical pattern in the region. “Death to” is often compared to something more similar to “down with”. The “curse against the Jews” part is concerning but it seems pretty clear in context that this is still just a reference to Israel. To the extent that the houthis are actually looks to kill Jews for being Jews, yes that is obviously horrible. But I think a more reasonable interpretation is that they generally aim to fight against the US and Israel, and which is the core part of their goals. To be clear, their treatment of Jews is clearly an issue, but they are not literally Hitler. >The Houthis have been accused of expelling or restricting members of the rural Yemeni Jewish community, which had about 50 remaining members. Reports of abuse include Houthi supporters bullying or attacking the country's Jews. Houthi officials, however, have denied any involvement in the harassment, asserting that under Houthi control, Jews in Yemen would be able to live and operate freely as any other Yemeni citizen. "Our problems are with Zionism and the occupation of Palestine, but Jews here have nothing to fear", said Fadl Abu Taleb, a spokesman for the Houthis. But despite insistence by Houthi leaders that the movement is not sectarian, a Yemeni Jewish rabbi has reportedly said that many Jews remain terrified by the movement's slogan. As a result, Yemeni Jews reportedly retain a negative sentiment towards the Houthis, who they allege have committed persecutions against them. According to Israeli Druze politician Ayoob Kara, Houthi militants had given an ultimatum telling Jews to "convert to Islam or leave Yemen". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement?wprov=sfti1#Persecution_of_the_Yemenite_Jewish_community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement?wprov=sfti1#Pe...
  - taeric 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you are aiming for here? I did not claim they are literally Hitler. I said they literally took up the nazi salute. My understanding is they did so on purpose. I would believe you regarding an odd downplay of "death to" with "down with," were it not for how willing to kill a lot of the actors in the area are? Again, I do not understand why folks give this group so much charity in "they say this, but they mean the much more reasonable that" way. It is mind numbing how much runway is being laid out here. Seriously, why do you think they deserve to be believed for holding reasonable positions that they have not made credible claims to? Heck, they haven't made many claims to them, period.
mupuff1234 3y ago
Anyone who wages war in the name of some god is a cartoon villain in my book.
- charred_patina 3y ago
  Ok well all you are doing is limiting your ability to understand the real world. If you don't mind being ignorant then go ahead.
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    Oh I understand perfectly fine that the world is complex and not all the "baddies" are baddies, and yet, anyone who their official slogan is: "God is the Greatest Death to America Death to Israel A Curse Upon the Jews Victory to Islam" Is indeed a cartoon baddie. (And I'm talking about the leadership, not just random followers)
    - comte7092 3y ago
      You’re lacking a significant amount of historical and cultural context to understand what that even means though. For one thing, translating the words alone leads to a significant stripping of context. Additionally, movements around political Islam have only gained sway since secular/nationalist movements failed to achieve their goals in a meaningful way.
      - mupuff1234 3y ago
        Almost all evil has "context" - doesn't make it any less evil. Yemen has more or less zero reason to be in direct conflict with Israel, it's as cartoonish as papa new guinea suddenly changing their slogan to "death to Cyprus!".

taeric 3y ago

The cartoon villain is them literally taking up the nazi salute. On purpose. And their flag. If you have evidence that those are misrepresented, that is one thing. So far, I have not seen evidence that that is the case.

charred_patina 3y ago
Is it not cartoon villainy when Israel has killed 23,000 people indiscriminately? Or Israeli real estate companies post pictures of planned beachside condos photoshopped onto rubble in Gaza? Or when Israel murdered 3 of the hostages because they assumed they were unarmed Palestinian civilians? All of the groups in this region (and the world at large), government or not, are extremely evil and capable of unimaginable violence. You cannot pick and choose to ignore the evils of one group because it is politically beneficial. Well, you can, but that's hypocritical. The point is that if your goal is to keep the region stable, maximize your influence, and minimize deaths, you have to treat everyone according to the leverage they have. Not the leverage you wish they had based on your moral judgements. The US media overwhelmingly portrays this as Israel being picked on "for no reason" by all of the savages in the region, and this hampers people in the west's ability to look at the situation objectively.
- taeric 3y ago
  Deflect, much? I can call out a group of cartoonishly villainous terrorists without having to condone any other behavior. I get that you don't like Israel. I don't know why I would necessarily want to change your mind there, all told. I can say you should not let that drive you to such allies as terrorists that attack trade ships.
  - charred_patina 3y ago
    > Deflect, much? I can call out a group of cartoonishly villainous terrorists without having to condone any other behavior. I am not deflecting, my point has been consistent across the whole thread. All of the power players in the region are bad people. However, you have to come to the table with them as they are. It's hubris to just think because the Houthis are bad guys then we don't have to take them seriously. Obviously the best way to stop these attacks is to force Israel to ceasefire (it's also the moral option), but many people wouldn't want to capitulate to pressure from "terrorists".
    - fiestaman 3y ago
      Do you think the Houthis would stop their attacks if Israel reached a ceasefire?
      - charred_patina 3y ago
        I think they would. You would need to have them sign an agreement (as well as Israel). If they violated this agreement, then sure, the USA could be justified in taking military action. However, painting them as savages and approaching it with a "bomb them back to the stone age" mindset isn't helpful. You'd think after 20+ years we would have learned this lesson.
comte7092 3y ago
>literally taking up the nazi salute. All I’ve can find is one video, not the same thing as them pledging allegiance to the Nazi cause. The flag uses a common rhetorical pattern in the region. “Death to” is often compared to something more similar to “down with”. The “curse against the Jews” part is concerning but it seems pretty clear in context that this is still just a reference to Israel. To the extent that the houthis are actually looks to kill Jews for being Jews, yes that is obviously horrible. But I think a more reasonable interpretation is that they generally aim to fight against the US and Israel, and which is the core part of their goals. To be clear, their treatment of Jews is clearly an issue, but they are not literally Hitler. >The Houthis have been accused of expelling or restricting members of the rural Yemeni Jewish community, which had about 50 remaining members. Reports of abuse include Houthi supporters bullying or attacking the country's Jews. Houthi officials, however, have denied any involvement in the harassment, asserting that under Houthi control, Jews in Yemen would be able to live and operate freely as any other Yemeni citizen. "Our problems are with Zionism and the occupation of Palestine, but Jews here have nothing to fear", said Fadl Abu Taleb, a spokesman for the Houthis. But despite insistence by Houthi leaders that the movement is not sectarian, a Yemeni Jewish rabbi has reportedly said that many Jews remain terrified by the movement's slogan. As a result, Yemeni Jews reportedly retain a negative sentiment towards the Houthis, who they allege have committed persecutions against them. According to Israeli Druze politician Ayoob Kara, Houthi militants had given an ultimatum telling Jews to "convert to Islam or leave Yemen". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement?wprov=sfti1#Persecution_of_the_Yemenite_Jewish_community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement?wprov=sfti1#Pe...
- taeric 3y ago
  I'm not sure what you are aiming for here? I did not claim they are literally Hitler. I said they literally took up the nazi salute. My understanding is they did so on purpose. I would believe you regarding an odd downplay of "death to" with "down with," were it not for how willing to kill a lot of the actors in the area are? Again, I do not understand why folks give this group so much charity in "they say this, but they mean the much more reasonable that" way. It is mind numbing how much runway is being laid out here. Seriously, why do you think they deserve to be believed for holding reasonable positions that they have not made credible claims to? Heck, they haven't made many claims to them, period.

mupuff1234 3y ago

Anyone who wages war in the name of some god is a cartoon villain in my book.

charred_patina 3y ago
Ok well all you are doing is limiting your ability to understand the real world. If you don't mind being ignorant then go ahead.
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  Oh I understand perfectly fine that the world is complex and not all the "baddies" are baddies, and yet, anyone who their official slogan is: "God is the Greatest Death to America Death to Israel A Curse Upon the Jews Victory to Islam" Is indeed a cartoon baddie. (And I'm talking about the leadership, not just random followers)
  - comte7092 3y ago
    You’re lacking a significant amount of historical and cultural context to understand what that even means though. For one thing, translating the words alone leads to a significant stripping of context. Additionally, movements around political Islam have only gained sway since secular/nationalist movements failed to achieve their goals in a meaningful way.
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      Almost all evil has "context" - doesn't make it any less evil. Yemen has more or less zero reason to be in direct conflict with Israel, it's as cartoonish as papa new guinea suddenly changing their slogan to "death to Cyprus!".