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> big part of oil money has gone to lobbying That may be true (as it probably is for most big industries), but what does it have to do with what I have been sa

> big part of oil money has gone to lobbying That may be true (as it probably is for most big industries), but what does it have to do with what I have been saying? I have been talking about a comparison between two electric systems. The Fraunhofer paper just provides evidence that the COP of air heat pumps is much worse than advertised on average. If you are talking about the parent comment that said that they installed a gas system after looking into the heat pump: even there it is not clear if a heat pump system is better in terms of total emissions. It heavily depends on what kind of home you are equipping, because you also have to account for emissions caused by upgrading and maintaining insulation and other facilities, and for emissions caused by conventional power plants to supply the electricity for the pump (and the flow heater for hot water). The german energy mix, for instance, does still depend heavily on conventional plants in winter, even if the wind is blowing: https://www.smard.de/home/marktdaten?marketDataAttributes=%7B%22resolution%22:%22hour%22,%22from%22:1703804400000,%22to%22:1704754799999,%22moduleIds%22:%5B1004066,1001226,1001225,1004067,1004068,1001228,1001224,1001223,1004069,1004071,1004070,1001227%5D,%22selectedCategory%22:null,%22activeChart%22:true,%22style%22:%22color%22,%22categoriesModuleOrder%22:%7B%7D,%22region%22:%22DE%22%7D https://www.smard.de/home/marktdaten?marketDataAttributes=%7... and during summer your expensive heat pump will just sit idle. > we have been using heat pumps for decades and it is a great thing. Great for your finances, the environment or what exactly? > My point is it all depends. It does. So we better look into the details instead of making decisions based on who has been accused of lobbying most prominently. But most people are not interested in looking into the details. They just want to appear "good" based on what's currently being seen as "good". Marketing departments know that.

pastage 3y ago
Thank you for your comments btw, they gave a good second perspective! From my experience doing everything you need for a heat pump to work is a great return on investment, and the carbon life cycle analysisis is beyond great. I think monetary costs are just taken for granted if you do not see burning fossil fuels as the only solution.
- starbugs 3y ago
  Thank you for yours as well. It's an interesting discussion. As another commenter pointed out, it all depends on the electricity source regarding the carbon life cycle. I posted another comment with the best detailed analysis for my current environment I could come up with and it's clear to me that the result doesn't warrant a definitive positive outcome for the heat pump. With a low CO2 emission electricity source, I would agree that a heat pump system can make a lot of sense if your goal is to reduce emissions. > I think monetary costs are just taken for granted if you do not see burning fossil fuels as the only solution. That sounds like a rich people's perspective. What if you don't have the money? If it's really about transitioning the heating of all homes away from carbon emitting sources, then this will only work if the solution is cheap, because not everyone is wealthy enough to afford the transition. If you implement policies that force people to upgrade, as was done in Germany, you will only transfer even more wealth from poor people to rich people. And I would argue that this also reduces the overall wealth in the system substantially since energy is an input to any product or service. At some point that leads to serious social and political issues as can be seen in Germany right now. This puts the whole enterprise of transitioning at danger once people demand radical political change.
deleted 3y ago
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pastage 3y ago
Great for the environment here since the nineties, but as you say you have to take capacity planning into account. That the german grid is so sold on carbohydrates is a problem and a bias in the debate over the last decades. I say this as a neighbor who does not read much german. I think we are in agreement on the facts just discussing the issue from different viewpoints.

pastage 3y ago

Thank you for your comments btw, they gave a good second perspective! From my experience doing everything you need for a heat pump to work is a great return on investment, and the carbon life cycle analysisis is beyond great. I think monetary costs are just taken for granted if you do not see burning fossil fuels as the only solution.

starbugs 3y ago
Thank you for yours as well. It's an interesting discussion. As another commenter pointed out, it all depends on the electricity source regarding the carbon life cycle. I posted another comment with the best detailed analysis for my current environment I could come up with and it's clear to me that the result doesn't warrant a definitive positive outcome for the heat pump. With a low CO2 emission electricity source, I would agree that a heat pump system can make a lot of sense if your goal is to reduce emissions. > I think monetary costs are just taken for granted if you do not see burning fossil fuels as the only solution. That sounds like a rich people's perspective. What if you don't have the money? If it's really about transitioning the heating of all homes away from carbon emitting sources, then this will only work if the solution is cheap, because not everyone is wealthy enough to afford the transition. If you implement policies that force people to upgrade, as was done in Germany, you will only transfer even more wealth from poor people to rich people. And I would argue that this also reduces the overall wealth in the system substantially since energy is an input to any product or service. At some point that leads to serious social and political issues as can be seen in Germany right now. This puts the whole enterprise of transitioning at danger once people demand radical political change.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pastage 3y ago

Great for the environment here since the nineties, but as you say you have to take capacity planning into account. That the german grid is so sold on carbohydrates is a problem and a bias in the debate over the last decades. I say this as a neighbor who does not read much german. I think we are in agreement on the facts just discussing the issue from different viewpoints.