4 ms·

You don’t seem to understand, the Byzantine problems are caused by Apple. They don’t bother properly following the network rules and guidelines, as a consequenc

You don’t seem to understand, the Byzantine problems are caused by Apple. They don’t bother properly following the network rules and guidelines, as a consequence the data banks get about their transactions in order decide an approval or detect fraud is a complete and total mess. Makes detecting fraud vs legitimate transactions harder than it should be. Eh, I assume you also want your bank to block fraudulent transactions on your card. Somehow I doubt you would react kindly to someone buying half a dozen MacBooks on your card without your knowledge.

mcv 3y ago
That, to me at least, is the difference between credit cards and bank cards: the only way to spend a significant amount of money with my bank card is with my authorization. Admittedly cracking a 4-digit PIN number is not that hard, but fraud with this is hard to commit and easy to detect (because I'm missing my card). With credit cards, the information needed to authorize payment is written on the card, easily photographed, and you need to share it with the merchant you're buying from. Of course I want fraudulent transactions to be reversed, but more than that, I want to use a system that makes fraud hard, rather than an everyday occurrence.
- lxgr 3y ago
  What country are you talking about? That distinction between credit and debit cards doesn't exist in many countries.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Netherland. It's not entirely clear to me what Americans mean by a debit card, but over here, we tend to pay with our bank card, and simply transfer money directly that way. Although with smartphone apps, the card is now mostly optional; I just pay with the app. Over NFC in a shop, or by scanning a QR code online. Although one of my banks has recently sent me a new bank card with a credit card number on the outside, and that worries me a bit, because I don't have or want a credit card from that bank, and I certainly don't want to expose myself to that kind of security hole.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That's a debit card then. In the Netherlands, that historically means Maestro or V PAY, which are indeed not usable for online payments. But as you've noticed, Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. If you don't want to use the online payment feature of it, some banks let you disable it. Otherwise, the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable.
      - mcv 3y ago
        > Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. But that's a massive step back. We should be getting rid of payment information on the outside of cards to share with merchants. We should be introducing protocols for secure online payment through your own bank. Which Netherland has (iDeal), but it's not universally internationally supported. (Steam supports it, Lego does not.) What we need is an international version of iDeal, not turning everything into the insecure system that credit cards use. > the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable. Yes, but that introduces fraud into a system that doesn't need it, which will drive up the cost for everybody. It's a step backwards.
        lxgr 3y ago
        > But that's a massive step back. Seen purely from a security point of view, I agree. But so many people have only exactly one debit card and currently can't use it for online payments abroad at all. Adding that feature to a bank's standard card seems like a good idea from that point of view, especially given that it doesn't add any additional liability. I also think it should be possible to be deactivated, but "on" seems like a reasonable default to me. > We should be introducing protocols for secure online payment through your own bank. This exists for credit and debit cards: 3DS! It's even mandatory for many intra-EU payments. If it's not used, chargebacks are mostly trivial to win for banks. > What we need is an international version of iDeal, not turning everything into the insecure system that credit cards use. Realistically, that's not going to happen anytime soon. Visa and Mastercard have had many decades to grow their international footprint. Domestic alternatives have started showing up (e.g. UPI in India, WeChat and Alipay in China) with significant success, though, and I could see some of these eventually expanding to a competing global system. I don't see that happening for an individual EU country's scheme, though; it would have to be something pan-European like the proposed "digital Euro".

mcv 3y ago

That, to me at least, is the difference between credit cards and bank cards: the only way to spend a significant amount of money with my bank card is with my authorization. Admittedly cracking a 4-digit PIN number is not that hard, but fraud with this is hard to commit and easy to detect (because I'm missing my card). With credit cards, the information needed to authorize payment is written on the card, easily photographed, and you need to share it with the merchant you're buying from. Of course I want fraudulent transactions to be reversed, but more than that, I want to use a system that makes fraud hard, rather than an everyday occurrence.

lxgr 3y ago
What country are you talking about? That distinction between credit and debit cards doesn't exist in many countries.
- mcv 3y ago
  Netherland. It's not entirely clear to me what Americans mean by a debit card, but over here, we tend to pay with our bank card, and simply transfer money directly that way. Although with smartphone apps, the card is now mostly optional; I just pay with the app. Over NFC in a shop, or by scanning a QR code online. Although one of my banks has recently sent me a new bank card with a credit card number on the outside, and that worries me a bit, because I don't have or want a credit card from that bank, and I certainly don't want to expose myself to that kind of security hole.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That's a debit card then. In the Netherlands, that historically means Maestro or V PAY, which are indeed not usable for online payments. But as you've noticed, Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. If you don't want to use the online payment feature of it, some banks let you disable it. Otherwise, the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable.
    - mcv 3y ago
      > Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. But that's a massive step back. We should be getting rid of payment information on the outside of cards to share with merchants. We should be introducing protocols for secure online payment through your own bank. Which Netherland has (iDeal), but it's not universally internationally supported. (Steam supports it, Lego does not.) What we need is an international version of iDeal, not turning everything into the insecure system that credit cards use. > the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable. Yes, but that introduces fraud into a system that doesn't need it, which will drive up the cost for everybody. It's a step backwards.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        > But that's a massive step back. Seen purely from a security point of view, I agree. But so many people have only exactly one debit card and currently can't use it for online payments abroad at all. Adding that feature to a bank's standard card seems like a good idea from that point of view, especially given that it doesn't add any additional liability. I also think it should be possible to be deactivated, but "on" seems like a reasonable default to me. > We should be introducing protocols for secure online payment through your own bank. This exists for credit and debit cards: 3DS! It's even mandatory for many intra-EU payments. If it's not used, chargebacks are mostly trivial to win for banks. > What we need is an international version of iDeal, not turning everything into the insecure system that credit cards use. Realistically, that's not going to happen anytime soon. Visa and Mastercard have had many decades to grow their international footprint. Domestic alternatives have started showing up (e.g. UPI in India, WeChat and Alipay in China) with significant success, though, and I could see some of these eventually expanding to a competing global system. I don't see that happening for an individual EU country's scheme, though; it would have to be something pan-European like the proposed "digital Euro".