5 ms·

Allowing me to buy things via my bank account is pretty much the use case for a bank account. I have very little sympathy for the self inflicted "byzantine" con

Allowing me to buy things via my bank account is pretty much the use case for a bank account. I have very little sympathy for the self inflicted "byzantine" consequences that result from a single valid purchase.

tremon 3y ago
But they're mostly not self-inflicted: the cause of all these things is asinine banking regulations (under the guise of combating terrorism) that are enacted by governments all across the world.
- avianlyric 3y ago
  Nope, there are very few banking regulations that exist to prevent terrorism, mostly because transactions associated with domestic terrorism look exactly like normal transactions, and are so few and far between that statically there’s basically zero chance you’re gonna correctly detect them. Any rules that are around detecting terrorism are mostly to do with sending money to sanctioned countries and individuals. Those rules are stupidly annoying to work with, because you’re basically force to write a rule that boils down to “does transaction description include the word ‘Iran’ then flag/block transaction”. As you can probably imagine they’re not very effective, but you look like a fucking idiot if your customer gets caught up in a terrorism investigation, and you didn’t flag/block those transactions. Most regulation deals with something far more mundane, money laundering. It’s mostly to prevent organised crime groups being able to launder their cash, that either cash generated from the “traditional” crimes, but more often it’s cash generated from socially engineering normal people into handing over bank details, or simply convincing them to send their life savings to a fraudster. Something that’s far more common than people expect, and far more effective than people expect.
avianlyric 3y ago
You don’t seem to understand, the Byzantine problems are caused by Apple. They don’t bother properly following the network rules and guidelines, as a consequence the data banks get about their transactions in order decide an approval or detect fraud is a complete and total mess. Makes detecting fraud vs legitimate transactions harder than it should be. Eh, I assume you also want your bank to block fraudulent transactions on your card. Somehow I doubt you would react kindly to someone buying half a dozen MacBooks on your card without your knowledge.
- mcv 3y ago
  That, to me at least, is the difference between credit cards and bank cards: the only way to spend a significant amount of money with my bank card is with my authorization. Admittedly cracking a 4-digit PIN number is not that hard, but fraud with this is hard to commit and easy to detect (because I'm missing my card). With credit cards, the information needed to authorize payment is written on the card, easily photographed, and you need to share it with the merchant you're buying from. Of course I want fraudulent transactions to be reversed, but more than that, I want to use a system that makes fraud hard, rather than an everyday occurrence.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    What country are you talking about? That distinction between credit and debit cards doesn't exist in many countries.
    - mcv 3y ago
      Netherland. It's not entirely clear to me what Americans mean by a debit card, but over here, we tend to pay with our bank card, and simply transfer money directly that way. Although with smartphone apps, the card is now mostly optional; I just pay with the app. Over NFC in a shop, or by scanning a QR code online. Although one of my banks has recently sent me a new bank card with a credit card number on the outside, and that worries me a bit, because I don't have or want a credit card from that bank, and I certainly don't want to expose myself to that kind of security hole.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        That's a debit card then. In the Netherlands, that historically means Maestro or V PAY, which are indeed not usable for online payments. But as you've noticed, Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. If you don't want to use the online payment feature of it, some banks let you disable it. Otherwise, the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable.

tremon 3y ago

But they're mostly not self-inflicted: the cause of all these things is asinine banking regulations (under the guise of combating terrorism) that are enacted by governments all across the world.

avianlyric 3y ago
Nope, there are very few banking regulations that exist to prevent terrorism, mostly because transactions associated with domestic terrorism look exactly like normal transactions, and are so few and far between that statically there’s basically zero chance you’re gonna correctly detect them. Any rules that are around detecting terrorism are mostly to do with sending money to sanctioned countries and individuals. Those rules are stupidly annoying to work with, because you’re basically force to write a rule that boils down to “does transaction description include the word ‘Iran’ then flag/block transaction”. As you can probably imagine they’re not very effective, but you look like a fucking idiot if your customer gets caught up in a terrorism investigation, and you didn’t flag/block those transactions. Most regulation deals with something far more mundane, money laundering. It’s mostly to prevent organised crime groups being able to launder their cash, that either cash generated from the “traditional” crimes, but more often it’s cash generated from socially engineering normal people into handing over bank details, or simply convincing them to send their life savings to a fraudster. Something that’s far more common than people expect, and far more effective than people expect.

avianlyric 3y ago

You don’t seem to understand, the Byzantine problems are caused by Apple. They don’t bother properly following the network rules and guidelines, as a consequence the data banks get about their transactions in order decide an approval or detect fraud is a complete and total mess. Makes detecting fraud vs legitimate transactions harder than it should be. Eh, I assume you also want your bank to block fraudulent transactions on your card. Somehow I doubt you would react kindly to someone buying half a dozen MacBooks on your card without your knowledge.

mcv 3y ago
That, to me at least, is the difference between credit cards and bank cards: the only way to spend a significant amount of money with my bank card is with my authorization. Admittedly cracking a 4-digit PIN number is not that hard, but fraud with this is hard to commit and easy to detect (because I'm missing my card). With credit cards, the information needed to authorize payment is written on the card, easily photographed, and you need to share it with the merchant you're buying from. Of course I want fraudulent transactions to be reversed, but more than that, I want to use a system that makes fraud hard, rather than an everyday occurrence.
- lxgr 3y ago
  What country are you talking about? That distinction between credit and debit cards doesn't exist in many countries.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Netherland. It's not entirely clear to me what Americans mean by a debit card, but over here, we tend to pay with our bank card, and simply transfer money directly that way. Although with smartphone apps, the card is now mostly optional; I just pay with the app. Over NFC in a shop, or by scanning a QR code online. Although one of my banks has recently sent me a new bank card with a credit card number on the outside, and that worries me a bit, because I don't have or want a credit card from that bank, and I certainly don't want to expose myself to that kind of security hole.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That's a debit card then. In the Netherlands, that historically means Maestro or V PAY, which are indeed not usable for online payments. But as you've noticed, Maestro is being phased out by Mastercard, to be replaced by Mastercard Debit, and that one will be usable online using its 16-digit card number just like a credit card. If you don't want to use the online payment feature of it, some banks let you disable it. Otherwise, the worst that can happen is that you're short the money until your bank refunds you in case of fraud – still very frustrating if it does happen, but it's very revocable.