4 ms·

Making your company look bad is probably fair grounds for immediate dismissal. She's probably not very sentimental of her position at Wix anyway.

by sgt 3y ago

lapcat 3y ago
> Making your company look bad Criticizing a government is not criticizing a company. Imagine getting fired from an American company for criticizing the American government. That would be absurd.
- squarefoot 3y ago
  True in case of a US (but see :1) or EU company, but try not being fired from a Chinese company if you criticize the CP, or from a Russian one if you do the same with Putin. Not all countries respect freedom of expression to the same extent, including seemingly democratic ones, and Israel does not condone any deviation from the established dogma that they're the good guys also when they slaughter thousands of Palestinians, including civilians, and any critic must be dismissed as an apology of terrorism if not straight antisemitism. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
  - locallost 3y ago
    I am not sure a comparison of Israel to Russia and China is in their favor.
  - jbstack 3y ago
    But the claim being discussed here from the GP is whether something is "probably fair grounds for immediate dismissal". Being fired from a Chinese company operating in China will be dealt with under Chinese law, where criticizing the government may well be valid grounds for dismissal (I don't know if it is or not). Here, we are talking about a company operating in Ireland and therefore subject to Irish law, not Israeli law. In this case, your assertion that "Israel does not condone any deviation from the established dogma" isn't relevant.
    - lucubratory 3y ago
      >I don't know if it is or not I am not Chinese but have several friends in China. It depends on the context and the criticism - if the criticism is generally correct or popular and is something the CCP could feasibly fix, it's fine even if harsh, and firing you is probably a lot more trouble than it's worth. Targeting an individual Party official who is high ranking enough could get you a corrupt reprisal from them, but that is obviously rare, and over time as corruption has gone down the Party official has to be higher and higher up to be able to pull it off. If the criticism is something like "The Chinese government is committing genocide", that would definitely be illegal as subversion of the state, and "We need democracy in China, the CCP is a dictatorship" would get you done for subversion of the socialist system (their terminology, not mine). In general, if you're saying things like that you might lose your job (particularly if Chinese netizens see it and mob up to demand you be fired, put in prison, thrown into the sun, etc). A more common consequence is that the authorities will look into your life and find some law you're breaking, often tax evasion - it is rare they actually charge dissidents with the whole subversion of the state and the socialist system schtick, they prefer to reserve that for more serious cases if they can. Even if they do charge dissidents for it, what the prosecution generally wants is not maximum sentence, death penalty etc - what they want most is for you to write an apology letter/video and renounce your statements calling for overthrow of the CCP or whatever. In practice that can lead to funny outcomes with dedicated dissidents, where the prosecution is trying to argue they're just a kid and this isn't that bad and time served + monitoring will be fine with an apology, and the dissident is insisting that they're a very capable revolutionary dedicated to the defeat of their local government or the CCP as a whole or whatever - sort of a special case inversion of the West, where we generally have prosecutors pushing for heavier sentences and defendants understandably trying to minimise them. What is actually dangerous and will get the book thrown at you is any attempt to get (or even enough appearance of having) foreign support. China takes the threat of Western IC associated "subversive activity" extremely seriously, they do not mess around with anything like that. It's why a lot of Chinese political groups that actually stick around and get accommodations (e.g. some queer rights groups) take great pains to separate themselves from Western organisations and causes, even if it's the same cause in a different country. In China it is a massive political handicap (and a target on your back) to have foreign support for your criticisms of the government. To make an analogy that might help understand the frame of mind, imagine a politician running for election somewhere in the US who was regularly talking about how much better China does this or that and how we should be more like them, is in communication with in-country Chinese groups or people, and was anti-US to some significant degree. Voters/the public would not like them very much, and the US government would probably pay very close attention to them and what they were doing.
- bell-cot 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Um...how old were you on 11 Sept 2001? Older than you, I suspect. How old were you during the Vietnam War? > Getting fired from an American company, after loudly voicing anti-American and pro-Al-Qaeda sentiments comparable to this Wix employee's statements, would be the "d'oh, and warm water is wet" outcome. Do you have any examples whatsoever of this happening?
geniusdetector 3y ago
[dead]
John23832 3y ago
The company, Wix, is the same thing as the Israeli state? If anything, I have to give it to the state of Israel. It really has mastered the art of (purposefully) muddying the waters between the Jewish religion, the Israeli State, and any company that is created or housed by either of the former. All of which should be able to be criticized (or celebrated) independently. I (or anyone) should be able to criticism the actions of a state without the assumption that that critique applies to all people who live in that state, or worse assuming it applies to a distinct religion. You especially should be able to do so when working outside of that state, and not be fired.
- sgt 3y ago
  I don't think you understand the optics of this. She claims Israel is a terrorist state and essentially signing off that statement as someone working for Wix. See tweet: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9EGs1JWkAAt6Yg?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9EGs1JWkAAt6Yg?format=jpg&name=...
  - locallost 3y ago
    Again, Wix is not the state of Israel. She did not get paid to align her political views with Wix, she got paid to deliver specific work for Wix. She has a very basic right to express her opinion.
  - zaktoo2 3y ago
    She also happens to be entirely correct.
    - ericfrazier 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - John23832 3y ago

Making your company look bad is probably fair grounds for immediate dismissal. She's probably not very sentimental of her position at Wix anyway.

by sgt 3y ago

Making your company look bad is probably fair grounds for immediate dismissal. She's probably not very sentimental of her position at Wix anyway.

lapcat 3y ago

> Making your company look bad Criticizing a government is not criticizing a company. Imagine getting fired from an American company for criticizing the American government. That would be absurd.

squarefoot 3y ago
True in case of a US (but see :1) or EU company, but try not being fired from a Chinese company if you criticize the CP, or from a Russian one if you do the same with Putin. Not all countries respect freedom of expression to the same extent, including seemingly democratic ones, and Israel does not condone any deviation from the established dogma that they're the good guys also when they slaughter thousands of Palestinians, including civilians, and any critic must be dismissed as an apology of terrorism if not straight antisemitism. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
- locallost 3y ago
  I am not sure a comparison of Israel to Russia and China is in their favor.
- jbstack 3y ago
  But the claim being discussed here from the GP is whether something is "probably fair grounds for immediate dismissal". Being fired from a Chinese company operating in China will be dealt with under Chinese law, where criticizing the government may well be valid grounds for dismissal (I don't know if it is or not). Here, we are talking about a company operating in Ireland and therefore subject to Irish law, not Israeli law. In this case, your assertion that "Israel does not condone any deviation from the established dogma" isn't relevant.
  - lucubratory 3y ago
    >I don't know if it is or not I am not Chinese but have several friends in China. It depends on the context and the criticism - if the criticism is generally correct or popular and is something the CCP could feasibly fix, it's fine even if harsh, and firing you is probably a lot more trouble than it's worth. Targeting an individual Party official who is high ranking enough could get you a corrupt reprisal from them, but that is obviously rare, and over time as corruption has gone down the Party official has to be higher and higher up to be able to pull it off. If the criticism is something like "The Chinese government is committing genocide", that would definitely be illegal as subversion of the state, and "We need democracy in China, the CCP is a dictatorship" would get you done for subversion of the socialist system (their terminology, not mine). In general, if you're saying things like that you might lose your job (particularly if Chinese netizens see it and mob up to demand you be fired, put in prison, thrown into the sun, etc). A more common consequence is that the authorities will look into your life and find some law you're breaking, often tax evasion - it is rare they actually charge dissidents with the whole subversion of the state and the socialist system schtick, they prefer to reserve that for more serious cases if they can. Even if they do charge dissidents for it, what the prosecution generally wants is not maximum sentence, death penalty etc - what they want most is for you to write an apology letter/video and renounce your statements calling for overthrow of the CCP or whatever. In practice that can lead to funny outcomes with dedicated dissidents, where the prosecution is trying to argue they're just a kid and this isn't that bad and time served + monitoring will be fine with an apology, and the dissident is insisting that they're a very capable revolutionary dedicated to the defeat of their local government or the CCP as a whole or whatever - sort of a special case inversion of the West, where we generally have prosecutors pushing for heavier sentences and defendants understandably trying to minimise them. What is actually dangerous and will get the book thrown at you is any attempt to get (or even enough appearance of having) foreign support. China takes the threat of Western IC associated "subversive activity" extremely seriously, they do not mess around with anything like that. It's why a lot of Chinese political groups that actually stick around and get accommodations (e.g. some queer rights groups) take great pains to separate themselves from Western organisations and causes, even if it's the same cause in a different country. In China it is a massive political handicap (and a target on your back) to have foreign support for your criticisms of the government. To make an analogy that might help understand the frame of mind, imagine a politician running for election somewhere in the US who was regularly talking about how much better China does this or that and how we should be more like them, is in communication with in-country Chinese groups or people, and was anti-US to some significant degree. Voters/the public would not like them very much, and the US government would probably pay very close attention to them and what they were doing.
bell-cot 3y ago
[flagged]
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Um...how old were you on 11 Sept 2001? Older than you, I suspect. How old were you during the Vietnam War? > Getting fired from an American company, after loudly voicing anti-American and pro-Al-Qaeda sentiments comparable to this Wix employee's statements, would be the "d'oh, and warm water is wet" outcome. Do you have any examples whatsoever of this happening?

geniusdetector 3y ago

[dead]

John23832 3y ago

The company, Wix, is the same thing as the Israeli state? If anything, I have to give it to the state of Israel. It really has mastered the art of (purposefully) muddying the waters between the Jewish religion, the Israeli State, and any company that is created or housed by either of the former. All of which should be able to be criticized (or celebrated) independently. I (or anyone) should be able to criticism the actions of a state without the assumption that that critique applies to all people who live in that state, or worse assuming it applies to a distinct religion. You especially should be able to do so when working outside of that state, and not be fired.

sgt 3y ago
I don't think you understand the optics of this. She claims Israel is a terrorist state and essentially signing off that statement as someone working for Wix. See tweet: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9EGs1JWkAAt6Yg?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9EGs1JWkAAt6Yg?format=jpg&name=...
- locallost 3y ago
  Again, Wix is not the state of Israel. She did not get paid to align her political views with Wix, she got paid to deliver specific work for Wix. She has a very basic right to express her opinion.
- zaktoo2 3y ago
  She also happens to be entirely correct.
  - ericfrazier 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - John23832 3y ago