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Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something. The article mentioned the government didn't know - should they have known? Not s

by oytis 3y ago

Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something. The article mentioned the government didn't know - should they have known? Not sure what the law on that in Netherlands is. From what I read, Netherland's special services did know, it wasn't him working privately with US and Israel.

oeta 3y ago
Capable of evil?
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  I don’t think fucking over Irans nuclear bomb program counts as “evil”. Unless you are the Iranian state I guess.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? It also hit much wider than just Iran's centrifuges. Infected computers by country: Iran 58.9% Indonesia 18.2% India 8.3% Azerbaijan 2.6% United States 1.6% Pakistan 1.3% Other countries 9.2%
    - Adverblessly 3y ago
      > Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? Iran funds, plans and executes terrorist attacks around the world, including Europe and the United States (via proxy organizations, and it also mostly fails, which is nice). Iran supplies Russia with drones for its war with Ukraine (obviously this is after Stuxnet, but just pointing out they are aligned with Russia/China against the West). Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How is it not okay for the United States and Israel to sabotage their nuclear program? How is it equivalent to sabotaging the UK?
      - megous 3y ago
        > Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How does Iran call for destruction of US? And why?
      - Dah00n 3y ago
        That's semantics. The US does much much worse things, but because the US or the EU brand something "terrorist" then those that support it in one way or another are evil? How many have Iran killed? The war on terror alone have caused more than 500.000 deaths. Sure you can say Iran is evil, but nothing you said makes them an okay target more than the US, UK, EU, etc.
  - oeta 3y ago
    "Irans nuclear bomb program" Sounds like Murican propaganda to me. Whats next? Russia's mass murder Nuclear program?
  - pelagicAustral 3y ago
    I agree, this is too much. We should form a rainbow-color coalition, invade on your premise, wage an unwinnable war for 20 years, and then ditch everything when it's apparent Western values are not welcomed by the local guerrilla.
sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
[dead]
rollulus 3y ago
European intelligence services are definitely capable, and the Dutch AIVD is highly regarded for its cyber capabilities. In a proper functioning democracy at least the prime minister should know what intelligence services are up to. As those politicians are ultimately responsible. It’s not that intelligence services are independent lawless sub-states.
- hoseja 3y ago
  , except for in reality.
Deukhoofd 3y ago
> should they have known Yes, it could have been considered an act of war, and have caused major issues. There's a parliamentary commission that's responsible for controlling the Dutch intelligence services, consisting out of the leaders of the 5 biggest parties in parliament. The fact that they weren't informed is a scandal. > Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around. reputation, carefully curated, is that they're small but can punch above their weight. they watched the Russians hack the US Democrats in real time, for example. that's how we know Guccifer was the Russians -- Dutch intel was already on those systems. Woulda been nice if they stopped them, but you don't become an APT by intervening constantly or blowing 0-days willy-nilly, and the attribution was useful enough.
TomJansen 3y ago
The AIVD nor the spy did know the specifics of the operation, e.g. that the waterpumps were carrying Stuxnet. Sources in the AIVD said that they felt used by the CIA. Better source: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politiek-ontstemd-over-verzwijgen-door-aivd-van-geheime-operatie~b301b507/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politiek-ontste...
wjnc 3y ago
Yes, multiple levels of governance were unaware of these actions, including the prime minister (a covert action that could count as a casus belli might be something to mention to the PM) and the committee where the leading representatives are briefed on all matters intelligence ('commissie stiekem'). How it went down, both the executive and legislative branch of government were in the dark. That's way more trust than the system is supposed to give the spooks. A former head of the intelligence department is quoted that not briefing the PM is more or less default ("sweeping his sidewalk"), which is an insult to democracy. Not that I cannot see the rationale for this action, but it all falls under the broad perversions of democracy and justice that our former-PM (Rutte) has willfully accepted.

by oytis 3y ago

oeta 3y ago

Capable of evil?

fullspectrumdev 3y ago
I don’t think fucking over Irans nuclear bomb program counts as “evil”. Unless you are the Iranian state I guess.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? It also hit much wider than just Iran's centrifuges. Infected computers by country: Iran 58.9% Indonesia 18.2% India 8.3% Azerbaijan 2.6% United States 1.6% Pakistan 1.3% Other countries 9.2%
  - Adverblessly 3y ago
    > Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? Iran funds, plans and executes terrorist attacks around the world, including Europe and the United States (via proxy organizations, and it also mostly fails, which is nice). Iran supplies Russia with drones for its war with Ukraine (obviously this is after Stuxnet, but just pointing out they are aligned with Russia/China against the West). Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How is it not okay for the United States and Israel to sabotage their nuclear program? How is it equivalent to sabotaging the UK?
    - megous 3y ago
      > Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How does Iran call for destruction of US? And why?
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      That's semantics. The US does much much worse things, but because the US or the EU brand something "terrorist" then those that support it in one way or another are evil? How many have Iran killed? The war on terror alone have caused more than 500.000 deaths. Sure you can say Iran is evil, but nothing you said makes them an okay target more than the US, UK, EU, etc.
- oeta 3y ago
  "Irans nuclear bomb program" Sounds like Murican propaganda to me. Whats next? Russia's mass murder Nuclear program?
- pelagicAustral 3y ago
  I agree, this is too much. We should form a rainbow-color coalition, invade on your premise, wage an unwinnable war for 20 years, and then ditch everything when it's apparent Western values are not welcomed by the local guerrilla.

sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago

[dead]

rollulus 3y ago

European intelligence services are definitely capable, and the Dutch AIVD is highly regarded for its cyber capabilities. In a proper functioning democracy at least the prime minister should know what intelligence services are up to. As those politicians are ultimately responsible. It’s not that intelligence services are independent lawless sub-states.

hoseja 3y ago
, except for in reality.

Deukhoofd 3y ago

> should they have known Yes, it could have been considered an act of war, and have caused major issues. There's a parliamentary commission that's responsible for controlling the Dutch intelligence services, consisting out of the leaders of the 5 biggest parties in parliament. The fact that they weren't informed is a scandal. > Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
> I don't think the AIVD has been criticized for being ineffective, if anything the other way around. reputation, carefully curated, is that they're small but can punch above their weight. they watched the Russians hack the US Democrats in real time, for example. that's how we know Guccifer was the Russians -- Dutch intel was already on those systems. Woulda been nice if they stopped them, but you don't become an APT by intervening constantly or blowing 0-days willy-nilly, and the attribution was useful enough.

TomJansen 3y ago

The AIVD nor the spy did know the specifics of the operation, e.g. that the waterpumps were carrying Stuxnet. Sources in the AIVD said that they felt used by the CIA. Better source: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politiek-ontstemd-over-verzwijgen-door-aivd-van-geheime-operatie~b301b507/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politiek-ontste...

wjnc 3y ago

Yes, multiple levels of governance were unaware of these actions, including the prime minister (a covert action that could count as a casus belli might be something to mention to the PM) and the committee where the leading representatives are briefed on all matters intelligence ('commissie stiekem'). How it went down, both the executive and legislative branch of government were in the dark. That's way more trust than the system is supposed to give the spooks. A former head of the intelligence department is quoted that not briefing the PM is more or less default ("sweeping his sidewalk"), which is an insult to democracy. Not that I cannot see the rationale for this action, but it all falls under the broad perversions of democracy and justice that our former-PM (Rutte) has willfully accepted.