9 ms·

"Dutch engineer carried out Iranian nuclear sabotage": VK

49 points by sjmulder 3y ago

meepmorp 3y ago
[flagged]
- aa-jv 3y ago
  Who are you to judge? The moral authority from which you can claim this sense of altitude, simply does not exist.
  - genman 3y ago
    So you approve a planned murder of over ten thousand people? And you approve state level mass persecution? And you approve strictly following religious dogmas over rule of law?
    - aa-jv 3y ago
      No, no and no. I also don't approve of Western warmongers interfering in other nations for the sake of immense profit, while couching the justification for their crimes in terms of human rights, when those Western nations involved in arms trafficking are easily among the absolute worst violators of human rights in the modern zeitgeist... For as long as there are 1,000 secret CIA torture sites across the globe in the worlds most repressive nations, and for as long as Pine Gap still operates, the moral imperative to 'do something' about Iran doesn't exist. They're not the bigger fire. WE are.
    - genman 3y ago
      It looks that there is small but existing group of Islamic extremists supporters on HN.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    Someone who knows their violent oppression of their own citizens is fundamentally immoral. What's wrong with you that you can't see that?
- datadeft 3y ago
  I am not sure if you trolling or serious. This kind of western moral superiority feeling that created the current regime at the first place. Iran is older than most civilisations on Earth. Chances are that they around while our culture is only in history books not zero.
  - oytis 3y ago
    Not wanting Islamist fanatics coordinating multiple terror groups around the world to have nukes is Western moral superiority, alright.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      but when the biggest western superpower, the only one to USE nukes, and on civilians at that talks, it has the moral high ground. It also does not topple regimes, asassinates its own citizens and others with drones, and just recently bombed an innocent families car while surprise pulling out of a country it had laid seige to. Yeah, moral high ground.
      - genman 3y ago
        I'm tired of this nukes argument. The morality arises from having a great power and not using it to destroy everything. US could have used nukes against Russia or against any other country. They did not. But perhaps they should have considering how much evil it enabled to prosper in Russia and China, resulting in torturous deaths of tens of millions of people.
        user_7832 3y ago
        I fail to understand how you are (trying to?) justify the US nuking Russia or China. I’m not from any of these countries but I don’t follow your logic. Should some other country be permitted to nuke the US if the IS “became evil”?
        genman 3y ago
vijaybritto 3y ago
"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later." This is a glorious story for the conspiracy theorists!
- oytis 3y ago
  Special services killing agents of other special services is not a conspiracy theory.
  - blitzar 3y ago
    Special services killing agents (or assets) of their own special services is not a conspiracy theory.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  This is not a conspiracy at all. It's common for such people to die in "accidents", or simply found dead. An MI6 agent found dead in his home, "neatly packed" [0]. KGB has a special division for tailored assassinations [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Soviet_secret_services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Sovie...
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    > His naked, decomposing remains were found in the bath of the main bedroom's en-suite bathroom, inside a red bag that was padlocked from the outside, with the keys inside the bag. > A subsequent Metropolitan Police re-investigation concluded that Williams's death was "probably an accident". Can't make this up...
    - amenhotep 3y ago
      I think the SVR probably did it, but you'd be remiss to ignore the facts that he had a documented interest in bondage and self bondage, had previously had to get help from his landlord after tying himself to a bed, and that a key to the padlock was found inside the bag with him. It was a weird case.
oytis 3y ago
Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something. The article mentioned the government didn't know - should they have known? Not sure what the law on that in Netherlands is. From what I read, Netherland's special services did know, it wasn't him working privately with US and Israel.
- oeta 3y ago
  Capable of evil?
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    I don’t think fucking over Irans nuclear bomb program counts as “evil”. Unless you are the Iranian state I guess.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? It also hit much wider than just Iran's centrifuges. Infected computers by country: Iran 58.9% Indonesia 18.2% India 8.3% Azerbaijan 2.6% United States 1.6% Pakistan 1.3% Other countries 9.2%
      - Adverblessly 3y ago
        > Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? Iran funds, plans and executes terrorist attacks around the world, including Europe and the United States (via proxy organizations, and it also mostly fails, which is nice). Iran supplies Russia with drones for its war with Ukraine (obviously this is after Stuxnet, but just pointing out they are aligned with Russia/China against the West). Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How is it not okay for the United States and Israel to sabotage their nuclear program? How is it equivalent to sabotaging the UK?
s_dev 3y ago
I think stuxnet was made famous (at least in my circles) by this quora post: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-sophisticated-piece-of-software-ever-written-1/answer/John-Byrd-2 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-sophisticated-piece-o...
- poisonborz 3y ago
  I would love to read a rundown that is not so hyperbolic/dumbed down ("most sophisticated software in history" for some multiple-0-day worm, also supplying digital signatures of large manufacturers must be common practice for agencies, etc).
  - ale42 3y ago
    The description looks a bit hyperbolic indeed. This one (ok, much more recent) looks very sophisticated as well ;) https://securelist.com/trng-2023/ https://securelist.com/trng-2023/
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sjmulder 3y ago
This is the original piece in Dutch: https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran-een-missie-in-duisternis~v989743/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran... One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  > One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident. This is one of those things that are unknowable by the general public. It may have genuinely been an accident, but it may also have been an assassination. In both cases it is possible, even likely and expected, that the official account be the same. A little potential snag in the story, though: "Nothing points to foul play, the Volkskrant said after speaking with people at the crash scene. Though, an anonymous MIVD employee told the newspaper that Van Sabben “paid a high price”" [1]. Perhaps that's there in the original piece you linked to: "‘Hij heeft een hoge prijs betaald’, klonk het bij de MIVD." [1] https://nltimes.nl/2024/01/08/dutch-man-sabotaged-iranian-nuclear-program-without-dutch-governments-knowledge-report https://nltimes.nl/2024/01/08/dutch-man-sabotaged-iranian-nu...
  - fi358 3y ago
    If it was assasination, who did it as it happened so soon afterwards? I would assume that it took long time for Iran to find out the Stuxnet.
    - SSLy 3y ago
      Obvious cause could be his "employers" getting rid of a toxic asset.
    - tremon 3y ago
      Indeed. If it was an assassination, it was from a "friendly" agency covering their tracks to avoid him spilling the beans.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Aside: VK = de Volkskrant. I thought the headline was saying the report was from VK, as in VKontakte, the Russian social media site, implying an additional level of intrigue.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  same. a lot more users than the Dutch media for the non-Russian speakers, the v in VK means 'in' so VKontacte is basically InContact.
stef25 3y ago
What would have been his motivation to assist with this operation ?
- michelb 3y ago
  Making good on the Dutch delivering nuclear plans to Pakistan in the 1970 through 1980's? https://www.ft.com/content/be09ba7c-b0d8-45e4-aff8-bf01b4aa558e https://www.ft.com/content/be09ba7c-b0d8-45e4-aff8-bf01b4aa5...
steve1977 3y ago
"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later." Now that's... unfortunate...
- stef25 3y ago
  It's 2 weeks later
  - steve1977 3y ago
    Oh... that's even more unfortunate...
r721 3y ago
Another discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38909220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38909220

49 points by sjmulder 3y ago

meepmorp 3y ago

[flagged]

aa-jv 3y ago
Who are you to judge? The moral authority from which you can claim this sense of altitude, simply does not exist.
- genman 3y ago
  So you approve a planned murder of over ten thousand people? And you approve state level mass persecution? And you approve strictly following religious dogmas over rule of law?
  - aa-jv 3y ago
    No, no and no. I also don't approve of Western warmongers interfering in other nations for the sake of immense profit, while couching the justification for their crimes in terms of human rights, when those Western nations involved in arms trafficking are easily among the absolute worst violators of human rights in the modern zeitgeist... For as long as there are 1,000 secret CIA torture sites across the globe in the worlds most repressive nations, and for as long as Pine Gap still operates, the moral imperative to 'do something' about Iran doesn't exist. They're not the bigger fire. WE are.
  - genman 3y ago
    It looks that there is small but existing group of Islamic extremists supporters on HN.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  Someone who knows their violent oppression of their own citizens is fundamentally immoral. What's wrong with you that you can't see that?
datadeft 3y ago
I am not sure if you trolling or serious. This kind of western moral superiority feeling that created the current regime at the first place. Iran is older than most civilisations on Earth. Chances are that they around while our culture is only in history books not zero.
- oytis 3y ago
  Not wanting Islamist fanatics coordinating multiple terror groups around the world to have nukes is Western moral superiority, alright.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    but when the biggest western superpower, the only one to USE nukes, and on civilians at that talks, it has the moral high ground. It also does not topple regimes, asassinates its own citizens and others with drones, and just recently bombed an innocent families car while surprise pulling out of a country it had laid seige to. Yeah, moral high ground.
    - genman 3y ago
      I'm tired of this nukes argument. The morality arises from having a great power and not using it to destroy everything. US could have used nukes against Russia or against any other country. They did not. But perhaps they should have considering how much evil it enabled to prosper in Russia and China, resulting in torturous deaths of tens of millions of people.
      - user_7832 3y ago
        I fail to understand how you are (trying to?) justify the US nuking Russia or China. I’m not from any of these countries but I don’t follow your logic. Should some other country be permitted to nuke the US if the IS “became evil”?
        genman 3y ago

vijaybritto 3y ago

"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later." This is a glorious story for the conspiracy theorists!

oytis 3y ago
Special services killing agents of other special services is not a conspiracy theory.
- blitzar 3y ago
  Special services killing agents (or assets) of their own special services is not a conspiracy theory.
bayindirh 3y ago
This is not a conspiracy at all. It's common for such people to die in "accidents", or simply found dead. An MI6 agent found dead in his home, "neatly packed" [0]. KGB has a special division for tailored assassinations [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Soviet_secret_services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_laboratory_of_the_Sovie...
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  > His naked, decomposing remains were found in the bath of the main bedroom's en-suite bathroom, inside a red bag that was padlocked from the outside, with the keys inside the bag. > A subsequent Metropolitan Police re-investigation concluded that Williams's death was "probably an accident". Can't make this up...
  - amenhotep 3y ago
    I think the SVR probably did it, but you'd be remiss to ignore the facts that he had a documented interest in bondage and self bondage, had previously had to get help from his landlord after tying himself to a bed, and that a key to the padlock was found inside the bag with him. It was a weird case.

oytis 3y ago

Nice to see that European intelligence services are still capable of something. The article mentioned the government didn't know - should they have known? Not sure what the law on that in Netherlands is. From what I read, Netherland's special services did know, it wasn't him working privately with US and Israel.

oeta 3y ago
Capable of evil?
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  I don’t think fucking over Irans nuclear bomb program counts as “evil”. Unless you are the Iranian state I guess.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? It also hit much wider than just Iran's centrifuges. Infected computers by country: Iran 58.9% Indonesia 18.2% India 8.3% Azerbaijan 2.6% United States 1.6% Pakistan 1.3% Other countries 9.2%
    - Adverblessly 3y ago
      > Why is it okay to attack Iran? Unless in a state of war, it seems just as “not-evil” to do this to the US or UK, no? Iran funds, plans and executes terrorist attacks around the world, including Europe and the United States (via proxy organizations, and it also mostly fails, which is nice). Iran supplies Russia with drones for its war with Ukraine (obviously this is after Stuxnet, but just pointing out they are aligned with Russia/China against the West). Iran openly calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel (can you guess where its future nuclear weapons will be pointed at?). How is it not okay for the United States and Israel to sabotage their nuclear program? How is it equivalent to sabotaging the UK?

s_dev 3y ago

I think stuxnet was made famous (at least in my circles) by this quora post: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-sophisticated-piece-of-software-ever-written-1/answer/John-Byrd-2 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-sophisticated-piece-o...

poisonborz 3y ago
I would love to read a rundown that is not so hyperbolic/dumbed down ("most sophisticated software in history" for some multiple-0-day worm, also supplying digital signatures of large manufacturers must be common practice for agencies, etc).
- ale42 3y ago
  The description looks a bit hyperbolic indeed. This one (ok, much more recent) looks very sophisticated as well ;) https://securelist.com/trng-2023/ https://securelist.com/trng-2023/

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sjmulder 3y ago

This is the original piece in Dutch: https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran-een-missie-in-duisternis~v989743/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/sabotage-in-iran... One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
> One of the things it mentions is the bike crash, there was an investigation but they couldn't find proof for it being anything other than an accident. This is one of those things that are unknowable by the general public. It may have genuinely been an accident, but it may also have been an assassination. In both cases it is possible, even likely and expected, that the official account be the same. A little potential snag in the story, though: "Nothing points to foul play, the Volkskrant said after speaking with people at the crash scene. Though, an anonymous MIVD employee told the newspaper that Van Sabben “paid a high price”" [1]. Perhaps that's there in the original piece you linked to: "‘Hij heeft een hoge prijs betaald’, klonk het bij de MIVD." [1] https://nltimes.nl/2024/01/08/dutch-man-sabotaged-iranian-nuclear-program-without-dutch-governments-knowledge-report https://nltimes.nl/2024/01/08/dutch-man-sabotaged-iranian-nu...
- fi358 3y ago
  If it was assasination, who did it as it happened so soon afterwards? I would assume that it took long time for Iran to find out the Stuxnet.
  - SSLy 3y ago
    Obvious cause could be his "employers" getting rid of a toxic asset.
  - tremon 3y ago
    Indeed. If it was an assassination, it was from a "friendly" agency covering their tracks to avoid him spilling the beans.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Aside: VK = de Volkskrant. I thought the headline was saying the report was from VK, as in VKontakte, the Russian social media site, implying an additional level of intrigue.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
same. a lot more users than the Dutch media for the non-Russian speakers, the v in VK means 'in' so VKontacte is basically InContact.

stef25 3y ago

What would have been his motivation to assist with this operation ?

michelb 3y ago
Making good on the Dutch delivering nuclear plans to Pakistan in the 1970 through 1980's? https://www.ft.com/content/be09ba7c-b0d8-45e4-aff8-bf01b4aa558e https://www.ft.com/content/be09ba7c-b0d8-45e4-aff8-bf01b4aa5...

steve1977 3y ago

"Van Sabben, a civil engineer by profession, died in a motorbike crash near his home in Dubai two years later." Now that's... unfortunate...

stef25 3y ago
It's 2 weeks later
- steve1977 3y ago
  Oh... that's even more unfortunate...

r721 3y ago

Another discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38909220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38909220