3 ms·

Let me try to ask you in the most neutral way possible: how do you feel about being an investor in a company with such a troubled history of privacy violations

Let me try to ask you in the most neutral way possible: how do you feel about being an investor in a company with such a troubled history of privacy violations and one of the key enablers of Surveillance Capitalism?

cactusplant7374 3y ago
Investing and not investing in the company mean exactly the same thing. Unless FB issues more shares you aren't buying shares from the company. You're buying from someone else.
- rglullis 3y ago
  > You're buying from someone else. Everyone buying shares do it for one of the following reasons: - They expect to receive a dividend - They expect to sell it at a higher price later to "someone else". In the first case, if you believe that the company is unethical, it's immoral to buy a share because you'd be profiting from their wrongdoings. By doing so, you are an accomplice. In the second, by buying the share you are not signaling you condone the company's actions, but you also have an incentive to get other people in the system.
rapsey 3y ago
You can find moral arguments against investing in practically any company. At the end of the day your stance makes no actual difference. The only thing you are doing is missing out. If you are so moral, spend effort into something more meaningful instead of making yourself poorer.
- rglullis 3y ago
  > You can find moral arguments against investing in practically any company Then maybe we shouldn't invest in most companies? > The only thing you are doing is missing out. "First, do no harm". If someone tells you they are going to rob someone else's home with a 0% chance of getting caught, do you join them?
  - rapsey 3y ago
    > Then maybe we shouldn't invest in most companies? Speak for yourself. I and I would say most don't care about your moral grand standing. > If someone tells you they are going to rob someone else's home with a 0% chance of getting caught, do you join them? Neither do I care about arguing against a straw man.
    - rglullis 3y ago
      It is only a straw man if you are more concerned about the legality than the morality of your actions and decisions.
surgical_fire 3y ago
Nobody should be in the stock market evaluating if companies behave ethically. Most companies do not. I do not invest in Meta specifically, but I would likely not vouch for any companies in my investment portfolio. It's up to the government and the courts to go after them, not me with a paltry few thousand dollars worth of shares.
- rglullis 3y ago
  > It's up to the government and the courts to go after them Except that the government benefits from their financial success (through taxation and political donations) and the courts are more likely than not following laws that were written to favor them and their interests (through lobbying and regulatory capture), so how do you see this actually happening?
  - surgical_fire 3y ago
    I live in a democracy. The government didn't pop into existence by manifestation of an unseen will, the society in which I live elected them. If people voted for a government that is butt buddies with the large corporations that exploit society through lobbying and regulatory capture, then the values of that society are already represented, and everyone compromised into unethical corporations having their way. What is not feasible is me, as an individual investor, voluntarily handicapping my ability to profit off something completely legal, out of some misguided notion that by divesting a few thousand dollars of some unethical company shares I would be saving a society that is far beyond salvation. I am not the main character in the world at large, I am not a savior. I am just getting by life trying to do what I can that my wife and child are happy. That's really all there is.
    - rglullis 3y ago
      > voluntarily handicapping my ability to profit off something completely legal You are saying this is as if there were no other alternatives for you to employ your excess capital. This is certainly not true. > some misguided notion (...) I would be saving a society that is far beyond salvation. I am not the main character in the world at large, I am not a savior. I'm starting to hear this recently, usually thrown at me with the accusation of having Savior Complex with it, and I truly don't understand it. To me, the point is less about saving "society" and more about being able to sleep at night with a clear conscience, knowing that for all the shit that is going around in the world, my work is not doing things worse. > I am just getting by life trying to do what I can that my wife and child are happy. Honest question: have you ever talked with your wife about what how much material wealth do you need to be happy?

cactusplant7374 3y ago

Investing and not investing in the company mean exactly the same thing. Unless FB issues more shares you aren't buying shares from the company. You're buying from someone else.

rglullis 3y ago
> You're buying from someone else. Everyone buying shares do it for one of the following reasons: - They expect to receive a dividend - They expect to sell it at a higher price later to "someone else". In the first case, if you believe that the company is unethical, it's immoral to buy a share because you'd be profiting from their wrongdoings. By doing so, you are an accomplice. In the second, by buying the share you are not signaling you condone the company's actions, but you also have an incentive to get other people in the system.

rapsey 3y ago

You can find moral arguments against investing in practically any company. At the end of the day your stance makes no actual difference. The only thing you are doing is missing out. If you are so moral, spend effort into something more meaningful instead of making yourself poorer.

rglullis 3y ago
> You can find moral arguments against investing in practically any company Then maybe we shouldn't invest in most companies? > The only thing you are doing is missing out. "First, do no harm". If someone tells you they are going to rob someone else's home with a 0% chance of getting caught, do you join them?
- rapsey 3y ago
  > Then maybe we shouldn't invest in most companies? Speak for yourself. I and I would say most don't care about your moral grand standing. > If someone tells you they are going to rob someone else's home with a 0% chance of getting caught, do you join them? Neither do I care about arguing against a straw man.
  - rglullis 3y ago
    It is only a straw man if you are more concerned about the legality than the morality of your actions and decisions.

surgical_fire 3y ago

Nobody should be in the stock market evaluating if companies behave ethically. Most companies do not. I do not invest in Meta specifically, but I would likely not vouch for any companies in my investment portfolio. It's up to the government and the courts to go after them, not me with a paltry few thousand dollars worth of shares.

rglullis 3y ago
> It's up to the government and the courts to go after them Except that the government benefits from their financial success (through taxation and political donations) and the courts are more likely than not following laws that were written to favor them and their interests (through lobbying and regulatory capture), so how do you see this actually happening?
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  I live in a democracy. The government didn't pop into existence by manifestation of an unseen will, the society in which I live elected them. If people voted for a government that is butt buddies with the large corporations that exploit society through lobbying and regulatory capture, then the values of that society are already represented, and everyone compromised into unethical corporations having their way. What is not feasible is me, as an individual investor, voluntarily handicapping my ability to profit off something completely legal, out of some misguided notion that by divesting a few thousand dollars of some unethical company shares I would be saving a society that is far beyond salvation. I am not the main character in the world at large, I am not a savior. I am just getting by life trying to do what I can that my wife and child are happy. That's really all there is.
  - rglullis 3y ago
    > voluntarily handicapping my ability to profit off something completely legal You are saying this is as if there were no other alternatives for you to employ your excess capital. This is certainly not true. > some misguided notion (...) I would be saving a society that is far beyond salvation. I am not the main character in the world at large, I am not a savior. I'm starting to hear this recently, usually thrown at me with the accusation of having Savior Complex with it, and I truly don't understand it. To me, the point is less about saving "society" and more about being able to sleep at night with a clear conscience, knowing that for all the shit that is going around in the world, my work is not doing things worse. > I am just getting by life trying to do what I can that my wife and child are happy. Honest question: have you ever talked with your wife about what how much material wealth do you need to be happy?