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The Arabic original of the slogan is, "min el-mayeh lil-mayeh, Falastin Arabiyeh" or in English "from the water to the water, an Arab Palestine". It's a clearl

The Arabic original of the slogan is, "min el-mayeh lil-mayeh, Falastin Arabiyeh" or in English "from the water to the water, an Arab Palestine". It's a clearly nationalistic slogan that goes well beyond equal treatment under law or human rights.

SauciestGNU 3y ago
Sure, but that's not what's being said. If that were the dominant use of the phrase that would be one thing, but the dominant use (and the one that's got everybody upset) is "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free".
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago
  Are we to believe that the English and Arabic speakers at these demonstrations mean two completely different things, simply by virtue of the English speakers using a nonliteral translation?
  - SauciestGNU 3y ago
    Yes, a phrase that's used in English that has a different literal meaning than a slogan in another language with a similar phrasing but different meaning is literally not the same thing. I doubt the majority of English speakers are even familiar with the original Arabic, but it's also irrelevant because it's not what it being repeated. If people meant that they would say that. They mean something different, so they say something different, and keep refuting loudly and repeatedly the baseless accusations of antisemitism lobbed at them by those who want to silence their message by policing the language used to communicate it.
    - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
      >I doubt the majority of English speakers are even familiar with the original Arabic, but it's also irrelevant because it's not what it being repeated. Yes it is. Lots of people in the current wave of demonstrations have been using the Arabic version.
      - SauciestGNU 3y ago
        Have they? That's not something I've encountered anywhere. I'm willing to entertain the possibility, but can you back that up with any evidence?
        eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        I haven't managed to find the video of Toronto, but here's one of New York: https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1748449960368996486 https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1748449960368996486
        runarberg 3y ago
        In the time it took you to find this one demonstration with honestly not that many participant, all of whom young students, cited from inside a twitter thread full of bad faith arguments, we’ve had Benjamin Netanyahu himself use this phrase to mean total Israel control (which at best means colonization or apartheid, or worst genocide against arabs). The difference here is that those are all pretty young students, and have no control over any policy, while Netanyahu is the Prime minister of a country at trial for Genocide. And while this variation of the phrase is definitely nationalistic, in the context of Palestine being colonized by a non-arab population it is probably more in line with “Colonizers go home” as opposed “No Jews allowed”, after all there are Jewish Arabs too. And finally these very same protesters were sprayed with skunk water at the very same demonstration[1]. That really shows how the powerdynamic actually aligns and who is actually at risk. [1]: https://twitter.com/ColumbiaSJP/status/1748729253770698944 https://twitter.com/ColumbiaSJP/status/1748729253770698944
        eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        > Palestine being colonized by a non-arab population Colonized? Jews are the indigenous people of the region. Arabs are the colonizers. > there are Jewish Arabs too. Not any who identify as Jewish Arabs, no: https://k-larevue.com/en/arab-jews-another-arab-denial/ https://k-larevue.com/en/arab-jews-another-arab-denial/, https://www.jimena.org/who-is-an-arab-jew/ https://www.jimena.org/who-is-an-arab-jew/
  - runarberg 3y ago
    I think you might be a little dishonest here. Have you ever heard Arabic speakers at a demonstration chant “فلسطين عربية” or “فلسطين إسلامية”? What you did was open my own wikipedia source, scroll down to the Variations section and found this old variation there. However if you open the original source[1] which claimed this historic use of the slogan, it specifically states that some people remember it being this way during the first intifada (1987-1993). This same source also says: > It is true that a state of Palestine would entail the end of Israel as a Jewish ethnic-national state. But as many Palestinian and Israeli intellectuals (and others) have noted: replacing Israel with a Palestinian state need not result in genocide or the ethnic cleansing of Jews. This article also raises an important point: > If one of our goals is to move Jewish American audiences, we need to recognize that the Israeli state and its allies have found it easy to weaponize this particular slogan in order to incite fear among Jews. I recommend you read this article, it is quite brilliant. 1: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/ https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-po...
    - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
      >Have you ever heard Arabic speakers at a demonstration chant “فلسطين عربية” or “فلسطين إسلامية”? Yes, during the current wave of violence and demonstrations.
      - runarberg 3y ago
        I did some online searching and yours is the only claim I’ve found that this variation is used in the current era of demonstrations. The article I just cited seems pretty sure that this old variation has gone out of fashion in favor of the current one: > Friends and activists I have asked remember this phrase being used during the Oslo era, when it was adapted and developed as part of a critique of and complaint against a Palestinian leadership from Tunis that surrendered claims over historic Palestine. At some point, the phrase became the rhyming couplet that it is today: “Min al-nahr ila al-bahr / Filastin satatharrar” (“from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free”). It is this version—with its focus on freedom—that has circulated within English-language solidarity culture from at least the 1990s. > For instance, some variants promote an Arab nationalist frame (“Palestine is Arab”), and others propose an Islamist frame (“Palestine is Islamic”). In contrast, the current version [emphasis mine] (“Palestine will be free”) expresses an open-ended but emphatic aspiration for liberation—this has allowed it to resonate with other freedom struggles. Now I did find material for the Arab nationalist variation, including a rather catchy protest song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldX9UEVJo0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldX9UEVJo0g). I don’t speak arabic so it is possible that the older variation is still used and discussed on the arabic speaking web, however I’m not finding it at all on the English speaking web, I can only find it being discussed in the historical context.

SauciestGNU 3y ago

Sure, but that's not what's being said. If that were the dominant use of the phrase that would be one thing, but the dominant use (and the one that's got everybody upset) is "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free".

eli_gottlieb 3y ago
Are we to believe that the English and Arabic speakers at these demonstrations mean two completely different things, simply by virtue of the English speakers using a nonliteral translation?
- SauciestGNU 3y ago
  Yes, a phrase that's used in English that has a different literal meaning than a slogan in another language with a similar phrasing but different meaning is literally not the same thing. I doubt the majority of English speakers are even familiar with the original Arabic, but it's also irrelevant because it's not what it being repeated. If people meant that they would say that. They mean something different, so they say something different, and keep refuting loudly and repeatedly the baseless accusations of antisemitism lobbed at them by those who want to silence their message by policing the language used to communicate it.
  - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
    >I doubt the majority of English speakers are even familiar with the original Arabic, but it's also irrelevant because it's not what it being repeated. Yes it is. Lots of people in the current wave of demonstrations have been using the Arabic version.
    - SauciestGNU 3y ago
      Have they? That's not something I've encountered anywhere. I'm willing to entertain the possibility, but can you back that up with any evidence?
      - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        I haven't managed to find the video of Toronto, but here's one of New York: https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1748449960368996486 https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1748449960368996486
        runarberg 3y ago
        In the time it took you to find this one demonstration with honestly not that many participant, all of whom young students, cited from inside a twitter thread full of bad faith arguments, we’ve had Benjamin Netanyahu himself use this phrase to mean total Israel control (which at best means colonization or apartheid, or worst genocide against arabs). The difference here is that those are all pretty young students, and have no control over any policy, while Netanyahu is the Prime minister of a country at trial for Genocide. And while this variation of the phrase is definitely nationalistic, in the context of Palestine being colonized by a non-arab population it is probably more in line with “Colonizers go home” as opposed “No Jews allowed”, after all there are Jewish Arabs too. And finally these very same protesters were sprayed with skunk water at the very same demonstration[1]. That really shows how the powerdynamic actually aligns and who is actually at risk. [1]: https://twitter.com/ColumbiaSJP/status/1748729253770698944 https://twitter.com/ColumbiaSJP/status/1748729253770698944
        eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        > Palestine being colonized by a non-arab population Colonized? Jews are the indigenous people of the region. Arabs are the colonizers. > there are Jewish Arabs too. Not any who identify as Jewish Arabs, no: https://k-larevue.com/en/arab-jews-another-arab-denial/ https://k-larevue.com/en/arab-jews-another-arab-denial/, https://www.jimena.org/who-is-an-arab-jew/ https://www.jimena.org/who-is-an-arab-jew/
- runarberg 3y ago
  I think you might be a little dishonest here. Have you ever heard Arabic speakers at a demonstration chant “فلسطين عربية” or “فلسطين إسلامية”? What you did was open my own wikipedia source, scroll down to the Variations section and found this old variation there. However if you open the original source[1] which claimed this historic use of the slogan, it specifically states that some people remember it being this way during the first intifada (1987-1993). This same source also says: > It is true that a state of Palestine would entail the end of Israel as a Jewish ethnic-national state. But as many Palestinian and Israeli intellectuals (and others) have noted: replacing Israel with a Palestinian state need not result in genocide or the ethnic cleansing of Jews. This article also raises an important point: > If one of our goals is to move Jewish American audiences, we need to recognize that the Israeli state and its allies have found it easy to weaponize this particular slogan in order to incite fear among Jews. I recommend you read this article, it is quite brilliant. 1: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-power-of-from-the-river-to-the-sea/ https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-the-history-meaning-and-po...
  - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
    >Have you ever heard Arabic speakers at a demonstration chant “فلسطين عربية” or “فلسطين إسلامية”? Yes, during the current wave of violence and demonstrations.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      I did some online searching and yours is the only claim I’ve found that this variation is used in the current era of demonstrations. The article I just cited seems pretty sure that this old variation has gone out of fashion in favor of the current one: > Friends and activists I have asked remember this phrase being used during the Oslo era, when it was adapted and developed as part of a critique of and complaint against a Palestinian leadership from Tunis that surrendered claims over historic Palestine. At some point, the phrase became the rhyming couplet that it is today: “Min al-nahr ila al-bahr / Filastin satatharrar” (“from the river to the sea / Palestine will be free”). It is this version—with its focus on freedom—that has circulated within English-language solidarity culture from at least the 1990s. > For instance, some variants promote an Arab nationalist frame (“Palestine is Arab”), and others propose an Islamist frame (“Palestine is Islamic”). In contrast, the current version [emphasis mine] (“Palestine will be free”) expresses an open-ended but emphatic aspiration for liberation—this has allowed it to resonate with other freedom struggles. Now I did find material for the Arab nationalist variation, including a rather catchy protest song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldX9UEVJo0g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldX9UEVJo0g). I don’t speak arabic so it is possible that the older variation is still used and discussed on the arabic speaking web, however I’m not finding it at all on the English speaking web, I can only find it being discussed in the historical context.