3 ms·

This is a weird take to me. > In the 1980s, the home computer industry was so new that most computers came with a programming environment that was easily acces

by k_roy 3y ago

This is a weird take to me. > In the 1980s, the home computer industry was so new that most computers came with a programming environment that was easily accessible to the end-user. There was so little software out there, users were expected to build their own little programs. There is a piece of that sentiment that is probably valid, but come on. Python is pre installed basically everywhere now. On a Mac? You get Python and PHP. On any machine, the world is so interconnected that you can get the language of your choice in seconds. Maybe it is easier to find software now that so much of it has been written, but getting access to a compiler that suits your needs/styles/whatever is comically easier. You aren’t limited to vendor specific Basic, or paying out the nose for something like Borland C

m463 3y ago
I strongly disagree. I think if it wasn't for free software, many companies would lock up programming tools like the game consoles. for example, python on mac is a dud. I believe 2.7 and I have heard grumblings about it going away. Apple wants you to buy your code, and if you want to write code, to use the languages they are in control of as a separate download.
- k_roy 3y ago
  I'm not really sure what you are strongly disagreeing about. The cat is out of the bag. Don't want to use python? You've got perl. PHP. And those are just the ones installed by default. Don't like that? You've got bash and zsh. > Apple wants you to buy your code, and if you want to write code, to use the languages they are in control of as a separate download. I haven't seen Apple putting a barrier up to running ANY other code beyond Swift/ObjC, have you? Because I've never had any issue on MacOS running golang, python, or basically anything else I could dream of, especially once homebrew is installed. I build code on an M2 mac on Python 3.12 basically every day. On linux, you can't even install packages on many distros without python. On Windows, you have similar stuff installed, as well as things like Powershell. The point is, all this software exists because the variety in programming languages makes creating apps of all kind more approachable to the normal person. No longer do you need to know ASM or C to make a functional app for anything you want. I'm just saying that it's a bit disingenous to say anybody would have problems accessing a compiler of some sort on a modern system, and there are multiple functional ones often installed by default.
  - m463 3y ago
    Those languages are sort of like the jackling house to apple. I know you can use homebrew (which requires an xcode install) but I don't see apple really supporting you writing code. With ios, you must ask 10 kinds of permission to write and run your own code.
    - k_roy 3y ago
      > but I don't see apple really supporting you writing code. I'm sorry. There is no part of this that I can call intellectually honest. I guarantee there are more members of the Fortune 100 that are developing on Apple hardware that have ZERO issues developing in anything that's not actually MacOS targeted. To the point where even suggesting this is laughable
rchaud 3y ago
> Python is pre installed basically everywhere now Perhaps, but every single Python tutorial I came across when I tried to learn it said to avoid the built-in version, and run it through a VM instead so there woouldn't be any conflicts between v2.7 and v3. As a learner, this wasn't helpful, it made me think that there'd be bugs and error messages I'd have to troubleshoot before even getting to Hello World. Part of the reason I went with PHP, as I just wanted to build something for my needs, without having to worry about unpredictable behaviours. Additionally, I can't run a Python web app locally on my phone.
- k_roy 3y ago
  I think ultimately the point still stands. On most OSes you have more interpreters/compilers than you could hope to be competent with installed by default. Full stop. Casual coding by whatever standards you want, it's more approachable than ever. Fine, python is a mess. I would never disagree with this, given the pain between 2.x and 3.x and the hell that we went through to get there. But 2.x has been officially dead for 4 years, and that's it. Trying to use that as a crutch fails to work anymore.

by k_roy 3y ago

m463 3y ago

I strongly disagree. I think if it wasn't for free software, many companies would lock up programming tools like the game consoles. for example, python on mac is a dud. I believe 2.7 and I have heard grumblings about it going away. Apple wants you to buy your code, and if you want to write code, to use the languages they are in control of as a separate download.

k_roy 3y ago
I'm not really sure what you are strongly disagreeing about. The cat is out of the bag. Don't want to use python? You've got perl. PHP. And those are just the ones installed by default. Don't like that? You've got bash and zsh. > Apple wants you to buy your code, and if you want to write code, to use the languages they are in control of as a separate download. I haven't seen Apple putting a barrier up to running ANY other code beyond Swift/ObjC, have you? Because I've never had any issue on MacOS running golang, python, or basically anything else I could dream of, especially once homebrew is installed. I build code on an M2 mac on Python 3.12 basically every day. On linux, you can't even install packages on many distros without python. On Windows, you have similar stuff installed, as well as things like Powershell. The point is, all this software exists because the variety in programming languages makes creating apps of all kind more approachable to the normal person. No longer do you need to know ASM or C to make a functional app for anything you want. I'm just saying that it's a bit disingenous to say anybody would have problems accessing a compiler of some sort on a modern system, and there are multiple functional ones often installed by default.
- m463 3y ago
  Those languages are sort of like the jackling house to apple. I know you can use homebrew (which requires an xcode install) but I don't see apple really supporting you writing code. With ios, you must ask 10 kinds of permission to write and run your own code.
  - k_roy 3y ago
    > but I don't see apple really supporting you writing code. I'm sorry. There is no part of this that I can call intellectually honest. I guarantee there are more members of the Fortune 100 that are developing on Apple hardware that have ZERO issues developing in anything that's not actually MacOS targeted. To the point where even suggesting this is laughable

rchaud 3y ago

> Python is pre installed basically everywhere now Perhaps, but every single Python tutorial I came across when I tried to learn it said to avoid the built-in version, and run it through a VM instead so there woouldn't be any conflicts between v2.7 and v3. As a learner, this wasn't helpful, it made me think that there'd be bugs and error messages I'd have to troubleshoot before even getting to Hello World. Part of the reason I went with PHP, as I just wanted to build something for my needs, without having to worry about unpredictable behaviours. Additionally, I can't run a Python web app locally on my phone.

k_roy 3y ago
I think ultimately the point still stands. On most OSes you have more interpreters/compilers than you could hope to be competent with installed by default. Full stop. Casual coding by whatever standards you want, it's more approachable than ever. Fine, python is a mess. I would never disagree with this, given the pain between 2.x and 3.x and the hell that we went through to get there. But 2.x has been officially dead for 4 years, and that's it. Trying to use that as a crutch fails to work anymore.