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> Seek success because you deserve it and learn to love yourself, rather than punishing yourself for not being good enough. The idea that I "deserve" success,

> Seek success because you deserve it and learn to love yourself, rather than punishing yourself for not being good enough. The idea that I "deserve" success, and to be happy, is something I've heard repeated many times but have always struggled comprehending. I think to myself, well, why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? I feel like there's a better way to think about this, but it eludes me. Does anyone have any advice?

imgabe 3y ago
Nobody deserves anything. That implies some kind of cosmic force or entity that is keeping track of who does what and enforcing some kind of justice. People get what they figure out how to get and they keep it as long as they figure out how to keep it. Random luck (good or bad) can happen to anyone at any time. It may not seem "fair" (whatever fair means), but it makes a lot more sense given the data than other explanations.
- nyokodo 3y ago
  > Nobody deserves anything. That implies some kind of cosmic force or entity that is keeping track of who does what and enforcing some kind of justice. You’re right that it relies on a divine judge which is why there is a moral argument for the existence of God[1]. 1. https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#14 https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-ex...
  - noitpmeder 3y ago
    Or, phrased differently: it's yet another reason why the teachings of modern religion, i.e. some are more deserving than others, is yet another piece of evidence they're a little questionable?
  - v-erne 3y ago
    I do not understand how can anybody take seriously this simplistic dichtomic way of looking at world. It's like the only thing that you learned about abstractions/modeling is boolean logic and now off you go to proving there is supreme being that has properties you want it to have (like caring about you). What if the reality is really only probabilistic? Or just chaos all the way down with some general models only kinda working on top of that but only if you don't look hard enough? Just taking this axiom into considetation : "Either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the "religious" one" - what if we live on a world where its true for some people and not true for others - lest say that some are selected by some random beings and they have "moral obligation" imposed and others were not so lucky and are left to themselves without any judgment waiting.
- broscillator 3y ago
  The opposite view also implies some sort of cosmic order, it implies that "deserving" is some type of natural, objective currency and that X work must be performed to achieve it. But that's not how it is, "deserving happiness" or "deserving success" are self-defined thoughts. Did I "deserve" to eat ice cream yesterday? Yes I did, because I decided that I did. You're conflating these abstract concepts with a more scarcity mindset about whether you deserve a specific job or accolades or whatnot. If that's how you narrowly define your own success, then you yourself are deciding that you don't deserve it (assuming you're not realistically working towards that specific goal).
  - jxnlco 3y ago
    i dunno man, pessimists are losers.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> The idea that I "deserve" success, and to be happy, is something I've heard repeated many times but have always struggled comprehending. I think to myself, well, why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? I get that. Some of it is because Success and Deserve are imprecisely defined - while I Deserve is declarative (and kind of precise). It makes the concept a weird fit. Past that: I think the point of 'I Deserve Success' is to break the association between Deserve and Effort. I suspect you aren't sure those two things should be broken apart. * As for what might work better for you: Considering whether or not you are welcoming of success when it arrives. If you aren't, Imposter Syndrome might be on the table. If you do welcome success, maybe you're already okay. * I know I'm hesitant to break Deserve and Effort apart. It's tied to my negative feelings about telling kids they're smart - because kids can't earn intelligence. I think the unearned elevation (here, anyway) skews expectations and makes learning harder
lacrimacida 3y ago
> The idea that I "deserve" success, and to be happy, is something I've heard repeated many times but have always struggled comprehending. I think to myself, well, why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? It’s some kind of self suggestion or fake it till you make it towards oneself. I myself think more in line with your reasoning and have trouble claiming that success unless there’s a lot of hard work involved or just a big dose of luck.
rapfaria 3y ago
Perhaps success is not deserved, but with enough anxiety you somehow can miss important milestones and the feeling of progress. So you "deserve" to experience that by making and effort to live in the now.
- jxnlco 3y ago
  author here: yeah from 15-25 all of my successes were just 'this has to happen, if i fail, I'll just be poor and a fucking loser' of course i got into college, i have to, my parents left china so i could be here of course i got a good job, i gave up so much of my childhood to try to get ahead. of course people think x, i gave up so much to have y. at some point i realised this was just like... not a great way to live my life. --- Nowadays i feel much better. Even if have coffee a friend, its like "wow im so grateful, my friends love me and spend time with me" Its definitly woo woo self help, but again these are the lies i tell myself.
roenxi 3y ago
You're actually posing something close to a religious question; nobody has any way to organise shoulds and deserves and suchlike happen without a faith-based argument. However, as a practical matter, most fields are stuffed with people who are either not or barely competent. If you focus on not making exactly 0 beginner mistakes then in my experience that is usually enough break into the top 10% of people and achieve success. Sometimes better than top 10% in uncompetitive fields. No competitive spirit or questions of merit required. Although making no mistakes is quite challenging. Don't get worked up if things go wrong.
grigri907 3y ago
I'm right there with you. I struggle to make sense of it, but I've found those messages useful as a counterbalance to the messaging or received from a religious upbringing, "I don't deserve any good thing," and martyrdom "real, true believers^TM will suffer. " It's also helpful escaping the American bootstraps mentality, "hard work will bring you success," and my personal corolary, "if you're not working hard/struggling/suffering, you aren't doing enough." The thought that success and happiness could just be available to me and that's okay and I don't need to feel shame about it is a pretty radical message that helps to counter my earlier programming.
- broscillator 3y ago
  This is the correct way of looking at it. It's about how the thought contributes or hinders your own success/happiness. If you were to find, empirically, that believing that you're not deserving of happiness is more likely to lead to happiness, by all means do that. But to pose that it is an objective truth is more likely to be a justification for why you're unhappy.
tveita 3y ago
I'm guessing you're imagining an entitled person sitting around and demanding things. But the advice is targeted to the kind of people who would pass up a job offer they want because "I'm not clever enough", or break up with their girlfriend because "they deserve something better." It is useful for them to realize that they deserve good things to happen to them just as much as other people do, not inherently less. It is unfortunately common for abusers to attack their victim's self-worth. "If not for me you wouldn't have any friends", "You should be grateful I'm taking care of you, you horrible child" so people grow up thinking that way. > why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? Yes. Every person deserves love and happiness, as a baseline. That doesn't mean that they automatically get it.
broscillator 3y ago
Because there's no real objective truth about it, it's just what you tell yourself. If you think people only deserve success because they worked X amount, that's a thought formed by social norms and, most likely, what you were told and how you were treated by your carers when you were growing up. The question is which of those beliefs will be more conductive towards actually achieving success and being happy? Instead of trying to guess which is true on some abstract sense, adopt one or the other, and empirically live your life by it for a while, and see the results.
jxnlco 3y ago
author here: it takes time, after i hurt my hands from working too hard i basically lost all my equity at the company, i thought i'd never be able to make money again. i tied most of my self worth to being able to make money. and when i realised i might not ever be able to code again it was a painful 2 years of really feeling worthless and being in pain everyday. You just have to practice, try the inverted thinking! -- a story: I had this thought before of not want pets cause they do no "work". I grew up in rural china and so even a pet dog was really a "guard dog". when my ex wanted to get a tiny dog and i just thought " what a useless animal it does nothing". she basically said"the point is just to love it and be loved" I still don't think i'd be ok with a useless pet like that, but i'm coming around to being able to accept that people do love things just on the basis of existing. like... if people can love a 5 pound dog with a breathing problem, maybe I could just be loved too? maybe the people around me could just like me for being me. I dont have to claw at the acceptance. But it starts with yourself, and being ok with loving others for just being alive and realising its possible and others are already doing it to you --- theres also something partiarcial about it, but I'd recommend `the will to change by bell hooks`
bithive123 3y ago
Rather than looking for better ways to think, realize the limitation of thinking itself and observe for yourself how thoughts about your self-worth, what should or shouldn't be, and our obsession with constantly measuring and classifying others and our ourselves leads to so much wasted energy and misery in our lives. Also notice that searching out "better" and "worse" ways of thinking are more of the same pattern. Thinking has its place, but it's more important to be aware of what's going on in our mind, rather than trying to use one fragment of thought to control other fragments. In other words, don't feel the need to have a system of concepts about yourself. You are so much more than what can be expressed in language, no matter how sophisticated. Spend that energy becoming more aware of when you get trapped by thoughts of what should be vs. what is, and laugh when you realize how futile it is to try to think your way out of the problems that were created by thought in the first place.

imgabe 3y ago

Nobody deserves anything. That implies some kind of cosmic force or entity that is keeping track of who does what and enforcing some kind of justice. People get what they figure out how to get and they keep it as long as they figure out how to keep it. Random luck (good or bad) can happen to anyone at any time. It may not seem "fair" (whatever fair means), but it makes a lot more sense given the data than other explanations.

nyokodo 3y ago
> Nobody deserves anything. That implies some kind of cosmic force or entity that is keeping track of who does what and enforcing some kind of justice. You’re right that it relies on a divine judge which is why there is a moral argument for the existence of God[1]. 1. https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#14 https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-ex...
- noitpmeder 3y ago
  Or, phrased differently: it's yet another reason why the teachings of modern religion, i.e. some are more deserving than others, is yet another piece of evidence they're a little questionable?
- v-erne 3y ago
  I do not understand how can anybody take seriously this simplistic dichtomic way of looking at world. It's like the only thing that you learned about abstractions/modeling is boolean logic and now off you go to proving there is supreme being that has properties you want it to have (like caring about you). What if the reality is really only probabilistic? Or just chaos all the way down with some general models only kinda working on top of that but only if you don't look hard enough? Just taking this axiom into considetation : "Either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the "religious" one" - what if we live on a world where its true for some people and not true for others - lest say that some are selected by some random beings and they have "moral obligation" imposed and others were not so lucky and are left to themselves without any judgment waiting.
broscillator 3y ago
The opposite view also implies some sort of cosmic order, it implies that "deserving" is some type of natural, objective currency and that X work must be performed to achieve it. But that's not how it is, "deserving happiness" or "deserving success" are self-defined thoughts. Did I "deserve" to eat ice cream yesterday? Yes I did, because I decided that I did. You're conflating these abstract concepts with a more scarcity mindset about whether you deserve a specific job or accolades or whatnot. If that's how you narrowly define your own success, then you yourself are deciding that you don't deserve it (assuming you're not realistically working towards that specific goal).
- jxnlco 3y ago
  i dunno man, pessimists are losers.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> The idea that I "deserve" success, and to be happy, is something I've heard repeated many times but have always struggled comprehending. I think to myself, well, why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? I get that. Some of it is because Success and Deserve are imprecisely defined - while I Deserve is declarative (and kind of precise). It makes the concept a weird fit. Past that: I think the point of 'I Deserve Success' is to break the association between Deserve and Effort. I suspect you aren't sure those two things should be broken apart. * As for what might work better for you: Considering whether or not you are welcoming of success when it arrives. If you aren't, Imposter Syndrome might be on the table. If you do welcome success, maybe you're already okay. * I know I'm hesitant to break Deserve and Effort apart. It's tied to my negative feelings about telling kids they're smart - because kids can't earn intelligence. I think the unearned elevation (here, anyway) skews expectations and makes learning harder

lacrimacida 3y ago

> The idea that I "deserve" success, and to be happy, is something I've heard repeated many times but have always struggled comprehending. I think to myself, well, why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? It’s some kind of self suggestion or fake it till you make it towards oneself. I myself think more in line with your reasoning and have trouble claiming that success unless there’s a lot of hard work involved or just a big dose of luck.

rapfaria 3y ago

Perhaps success is not deserved, but with enough anxiety you somehow can miss important milestones and the feeling of progress. So you "deserve" to experience that by making and effort to live in the now.

jxnlco 3y ago
author here: yeah from 15-25 all of my successes were just 'this has to happen, if i fail, I'll just be poor and a fucking loser' of course i got into college, i have to, my parents left china so i could be here of course i got a good job, i gave up so much of my childhood to try to get ahead. of course people think x, i gave up so much to have y. at some point i realised this was just like... not a great way to live my life. --- Nowadays i feel much better. Even if have coffee a friend, its like "wow im so grateful, my friends love me and spend time with me" Its definitly woo woo self help, but again these are the lies i tell myself.

roenxi 3y ago

You're actually posing something close to a religious question; nobody has any way to organise shoulds and deserves and suchlike happen without a faith-based argument. However, as a practical matter, most fields are stuffed with people who are either not or barely competent. If you focus on not making exactly 0 beginner mistakes then in my experience that is usually enough break into the top 10% of people and achieve success. Sometimes better than top 10% in uncompetitive fields. No competitive spirit or questions of merit required. Although making no mistakes is quite challenging. Don't get worked up if things go wrong.

grigri907 3y ago

I'm right there with you. I struggle to make sense of it, but I've found those messages useful as a counterbalance to the messaging or received from a religious upbringing, "I don't deserve any good thing," and martyrdom "real, true believers^TM will suffer. " It's also helpful escaping the American bootstraps mentality, "hard work will bring you success," and my personal corolary, "if you're not working hard/struggling/suffering, you aren't doing enough." The thought that success and happiness could just be available to me and that's okay and I don't need to feel shame about it is a pretty radical message that helps to counter my earlier programming.

broscillator 3y ago
This is the correct way of looking at it. It's about how the thought contributes or hinders your own success/happiness. If you were to find, empirically, that believing that you're not deserving of happiness is more likely to lead to happiness, by all means do that. But to pose that it is an objective truth is more likely to be a justification for why you're unhappy.

tveita 3y ago

I'm guessing you're imagining an entitled person sitting around and demanding things. But the advice is targeted to the kind of people who would pass up a job offer they want because "I'm not clever enough", or break up with their girlfriend because "they deserve something better." It is useful for them to realize that they deserve good things to happen to them just as much as other people do, not inherently less. It is unfortunately common for abusers to attack their victim's self-worth. "If not for me you wouldn't have any friends", "You should be grateful I'm taking care of you, you horrible child" so people grow up thinking that way. > why do I deserve it? Just for being alive? Yes. Every person deserves love and happiness, as a baseline. That doesn't mean that they automatically get it.

broscillator 3y ago

Because there's no real objective truth about it, it's just what you tell yourself. If you think people only deserve success because they worked X amount, that's a thought formed by social norms and, most likely, what you were told and how you were treated by your carers when you were growing up. The question is which of those beliefs will be more conductive towards actually achieving success and being happy? Instead of trying to guess which is true on some abstract sense, adopt one or the other, and empirically live your life by it for a while, and see the results.

jxnlco 3y ago

author here: it takes time, after i hurt my hands from working too hard i basically lost all my equity at the company, i thought i'd never be able to make money again. i tied most of my self worth to being able to make money. and when i realised i might not ever be able to code again it was a painful 2 years of really feeling worthless and being in pain everyday. You just have to practice, try the inverted thinking! -- a story: I had this thought before of not want pets cause they do no "work". I grew up in rural china and so even a pet dog was really a "guard dog". when my ex wanted to get a tiny dog and i just thought " what a useless animal it does nothing". she basically said"the point is just to love it and be loved" I still don't think i'd be ok with a useless pet like that, but i'm coming around to being able to accept that people do love things just on the basis of existing. like... if people can love a 5 pound dog with a breathing problem, maybe I could just be loved too? maybe the people around me could just like me for being me. I dont have to claw at the acceptance. But it starts with yourself, and being ok with loving others for just being alive and realising its possible and others are already doing it to you --- theres also something partiarcial about it, but I'd recommend `the will to change by bell hooks`

bithive123 3y ago

Rather than looking for better ways to think, realize the limitation of thinking itself and observe for yourself how thoughts about your self-worth, what should or shouldn't be, and our obsession with constantly measuring and classifying others and our ourselves leads to so much wasted energy and misery in our lives. Also notice that searching out "better" and "worse" ways of thinking are more of the same pattern. Thinking has its place, but it's more important to be aware of what's going on in our mind, rather than trying to use one fragment of thought to control other fragments. In other words, don't feel the need to have a system of concepts about yourself. You are so much more than what can be expressed in language, no matter how sophisticated. Spend that energy becoming more aware of when you get trapped by thoughts of what should be vs. what is, and laugh when you realize how futile it is to try to think your way out of the problems that were created by thought in the first place.