4 ms·

Everything sounds great until you ask, what if someone wants to opt out?

pi-e-sigma 3y ago
Yeah, but that's not unique to communism. You can't really opt out of current capitalistic economic system either
harimau777 3y ago
That applies to capitalism as well. For example, if you opt out of recognizing private property (in this case, by private property I mean things like land as opposed to personal property like someone's house or car) people with guns will come and destroy your personal property and/or throw you in jail.
- lupusreal 3y ago
  In capitalist systems, you and your buddies are free to opt out and sign over all your property to a commune. What you aren't free to do is rob other people who don't consent to your commune of their stuff. Because they have the right to not join you, this is the fundamental sticking point that makes communists (literally) murderously mad.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    I don't think that's quite accurate. The sticking point is whether people have the right to own or exclude others from private property (again as separate from personal property), to what degree it is legitimate for individuals to profit from private property, and whether that private property was legitimately acquired. If individuals don't have the right to own or exclude others from private property, then other people using it isn't theft. If the bounty that comes from natural resources on private property should benefit society as a whole (because no individual created them). Then it is unjust for their extraction to be monopolized by someone who claims to own them. If land was unjustly acquired such as through enclosure of common land or colonialism, then it is the owners who are the thieves. It's important to recognize that different branches of socialism are going to see the specifics of these sorts of issues differently.
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      The fact of the matter is that under capitalism, you can choose to pool your resources with other people and start your own little communist society embedded in the capitalist society. As long as all of your participants are consenting, that's allowed. On the flipside, in a nominally communist society (or more accurately, a socialist society which is striving to achieve communism in the future, supposedly a scientifically inevitable outcome which has never panned out...), you're not allowed to create an embedded capitalist society of consenting members. People still do it of course, but it is officially forbidden and all the consenting participants are risking state violence. The reason the commune of consenting members embedded in a capitalist society doesn't satisfy you is because you think that "real communism" can only be done if you can force unconsenting people to comply; if you are allowed to steal and murder anybody who isn't with you. But the truth is that even when people striving for communism have free reign to force compliance of the unwilling, they still inevitability fail to achieve communism. It's a utopian ideology which will never be realized, which is good only for giving the bitter and resentful a license to murder.
      - harimau777 3y ago
        Please don't resort to personal attacks. The issue with creating a communist society inside a capitalist society is that it is only possible for people who already have access to capital. People without access to capital do not have that option. If it is unjust to exclude others from private property or if the person who owns the private property gained in unjustly, then it is unjust if only those who own private property can opt out of capitalism.
        lupusreal 3y ago
        There are plenty of people with reasonable amounts of capital who are enamoured with communism. If you can't make it work after pooling the resources of a dozen or so people, that just proves that you have no business managing the pooled resources of an entire nation. The real problem with implementing communism, embedded in a capitalist society or otherwise, is you inevitability need to use violence to force your neighbors to join you. It's an intrinsically violent ideology that leads only to death and ruin.

Yeah, but that's not unique to communism. You can't really opt out of current capitalistic economic system either

That applies to capitalism as well. For example, if you opt out of recognizing private property (in this case, by private property I mean things like land as opposed to personal property like someone's house or car) people with guns will come and destroy your personal property and/or throw you in jail.

lupusreal 3y ago
In capitalist systems, you and your buddies are free to opt out and sign over all your property to a commune. What you aren't free to do is rob other people who don't consent to your commune of their stuff. Because they have the right to not join you, this is the fundamental sticking point that makes communists (literally) murderously mad.
- harimau777 3y ago
  I don't think that's quite accurate. The sticking point is whether people have the right to own or exclude others from private property (again as separate from personal property), to what degree it is legitimate for individuals to profit from private property, and whether that private property was legitimately acquired. If individuals don't have the right to own or exclude others from private property, then other people using it isn't theft. If the bounty that comes from natural resources on private property should benefit society as a whole (because no individual created them). Then it is unjust for their extraction to be monopolized by someone who claims to own them. If land was unjustly acquired such as through enclosure of common land or colonialism, then it is the owners who are the thieves. It's important to recognize that different branches of socialism are going to see the specifics of these sorts of issues differently.
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    The fact of the matter is that under capitalism, you can choose to pool your resources with other people and start your own little communist society embedded in the capitalist society. As long as all of your participants are consenting, that's allowed. On the flipside, in a nominally communist society (or more accurately, a socialist society which is striving to achieve communism in the future, supposedly a scientifically inevitable outcome which has never panned out...), you're not allowed to create an embedded capitalist society of consenting members. People still do it of course, but it is officially forbidden and all the consenting participants are risking state violence. The reason the commune of consenting members embedded in a capitalist society doesn't satisfy you is because you think that "real communism" can only be done if you can force unconsenting people to comply; if you are allowed to steal and murder anybody who isn't with you. But the truth is that even when people striving for communism have free reign to force compliance of the unwilling, they still inevitability fail to achieve communism. It's a utopian ideology which will never be realized, which is good only for giving the bitter and resentful a license to murder.
    - harimau777 3y ago
      Please don't resort to personal attacks. The issue with creating a communist society inside a capitalist society is that it is only possible for people who already have access to capital. People without access to capital do not have that option. If it is unjust to exclude others from private property or if the person who owns the private property gained in unjustly, then it is unjust if only those who own private property can opt out of capitalism.
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        There are plenty of people with reasonable amounts of capital who are enamoured with communism. If you can't make it work after pooling the resources of a dozen or so people, that just proves that you have no business managing the pooled resources of an entire nation. The real problem with implementing communism, embedded in a capitalist society or otherwise, is you inevitability need to use violence to force your neighbors to join you. It's an intrinsically violent ideology that leads only to death and ruin.