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> Israel is not "openly genocidal". Yes, it is [0]. > Arguments that Israel's policy is genocidal do not tend to survive acquaintance with a serious internati

> Israel is not "openly genocidal". Yes, it is [0]. > Arguments that Israel's policy is genocidal do not tend to survive acquaintance with a serious international lawyer. False [1]. > It is simply false that 92% of people have no effect on policy Oh yeah [2]? Also, the majority of the US supports free healthcare, a ceasefire in Palestine, free college, clean water, modern drug policy, fair housing, and higher taxes on the rich. It's pretty obvious that the people are not being represented. > Nobody in this thread has complained about the existence of political work. You're changing the argument. > I think your opinions are much stronger and more certain than your knowledge base warrants. You might be right. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, and your arguments that I am are pretty flimsy for a self-proclaimed scientist. 0 - https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/ https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-databas... 1 - https://www.un.org/unispal/document/icj-southafrica-israel-genocide-29dec2023/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/icj-southafrica-israel-g... 2 - https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/princeton-scholar-demise-of-democracy-america-tpm-interview https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/princeton-scholar-demise-of...

dash2 3y ago
I'm glad you accept my point about inequality. For Gilens and Page, don't waste time reading TPM. Just read the original article. Notice that they correlate expressed preferences with policy, find it higher for rich people, and draw their conclusion. An alternative explanation, backed up by 50 years of public opinion research, is that most people don't have carefully thought out opinions on public policy. They have non-attitudes which will change whenever they are asked or depending whose asking. Not surprisingly, randomness doesn't correlate with anything. Rich people are often more interested in politics - you are likely an example. As for Palestine, you're citing an advocacy organization, and the UN, of which the less said the better. To quote Ben Kiernan, "Israel's retaliatory bombing of Gaza, however indiscriminate, and its current ground attacks, despite the numerous civilian casualties they are causing among Gaza's Palestinian population, do not meet the very high threshold that is required to meet the legal definition of genocide." Here's another reasonable take: https://archive.is/O8HpJ https://archive.is/O8HpJ
- mandmandam 3y ago
  So, you're literally a genocide denier. So is Ben Kiernan. That's horrific bro. Heinous semantic quibbles aside - 30,000 people have been killed. PEOPLE. Lives ended. ZERO senior Hamas leaders have been killed. ZERO hostages have been rescued. 75% of all homes have been destroyed, for 2.3 million people. This result cost 11 figures. And you and Ben Kiernan say you're not sure if there's enough intent to call it a genocide! Buddy, Israeli state TV have a bunch of schoolkids singing about "total annihilation" of Gaza. There's HD video of too many war crimes and atrocities to list. These people are filming unimaginable horror, and you're cherry-picking one genocide researcher's statment from 2 months and 20,000 murders ago. That's a yikes dude. The list of genocidal statements from Israeli leaders is looooong - I already posted it. You dismissed it as "from an advocacy group", even though it's fully sourced. The less said the better about the UN?? Why - because Israel have killed more UN workers than any conflict in history?! You are literally a genocide denier. You're helping ethnic cleansing happen. You are. Deny it, call it what you like, that is what you are choosing to do with your one life on earth. God help you. 0 - https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
  - dash2 3y ago
    That's correct. I'm denying that Israel is committing genocide, because I think it isn't. 1) Hamas quotes 22K people killed. I don't know where your 30K figure comes from. Even if you believe the figures of Hamas, which has every incentive to lie and no ethics to hold it back, this is 1% of the Gaza strip's population. If Israel wanted to kill many more times that, it obviously could. I suggest to you that urban warfare against irregular forces has inevitable casualties, which does not make that war unjust. Was the taking of Berlin genocide? If not, what is the difference? 2) Numerous hostages have been rescued, in negotiations which were enabled by the military pressure put on Hamas. 3) A senior Hamas leader was widely reported killed just 2 days ago. 4) You don't know how many homes have been destroyed. The UN estimates 65,000 homes. The highest estimate quoted here by the Guardian is 33%. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-th... I'm happy to believe that Israel has committed war crimes, and it would not surprise me. I worry about ethnic cleansing too - though that will be shown by what happens after the war and not by the fact that Israel encourages civilians to flee a war zone. Claims of genocide are overblown, and I suggest you should tone down your heated rhetoric. The original context was one guy making a lot of inaccurate claims; a second person doing the same does not weaken my case.

dash2 3y ago

I'm glad you accept my point about inequality. For Gilens and Page, don't waste time reading TPM. Just read the original article. Notice that they correlate expressed preferences with policy, find it higher for rich people, and draw their conclusion. An alternative explanation, backed up by 50 years of public opinion research, is that most people don't have carefully thought out opinions on public policy. They have non-attitudes which will change whenever they are asked or depending whose asking. Not surprisingly, randomness doesn't correlate with anything. Rich people are often more interested in politics - you are likely an example. As for Palestine, you're citing an advocacy organization, and the UN, of which the less said the better. To quote Ben Kiernan, "Israel's retaliatory bombing of Gaza, however indiscriminate, and its current ground attacks, despite the numerous civilian casualties they are causing among Gaza's Palestinian population, do not meet the very high threshold that is required to meet the legal definition of genocide." Here's another reasonable take: https://archive.is/O8HpJ https://archive.is/O8HpJ

mandmandam 3y ago
So, you're literally a genocide denier. So is Ben Kiernan. That's horrific bro. Heinous semantic quibbles aside - 30,000 people have been killed. PEOPLE. Lives ended. ZERO senior Hamas leaders have been killed. ZERO hostages have been rescued. 75% of all homes have been destroyed, for 2.3 million people. This result cost 11 figures. And you and Ben Kiernan say you're not sure if there's enough intent to call it a genocide! Buddy, Israeli state TV have a bunch of schoolkids singing about "total annihilation" of Gaza. There's HD video of too many war crimes and atrocities to list. These people are filming unimaginable horror, and you're cherry-picking one genocide researcher's statment from 2 months and 20,000 murders ago. That's a yikes dude. The list of genocidal statements from Israeli leaders is looooong - I already posted it. You dismissed it as "from an advocacy group", even though it's fully sourced. The less said the better about the UN?? Why - because Israel have killed more UN workers than any conflict in history?! You are literally a genocide denier. You're helping ethnic cleansing happen. You are. Deny it, call it what you like, that is what you are choosing to do with your one life on earth. God help you. 0 - https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
- dash2 3y ago
  That's correct. I'm denying that Israel is committing genocide, because I think it isn't. 1) Hamas quotes 22K people killed. I don't know where your 30K figure comes from. Even if you believe the figures of Hamas, which has every incentive to lie and no ethics to hold it back, this is 1% of the Gaza strip's population. If Israel wanted to kill many more times that, it obviously could. I suggest to you that urban warfare against irregular forces has inevitable casualties, which does not make that war unjust. Was the taking of Berlin genocide? If not, what is the difference? 2) Numerous hostages have been rescued, in negotiations which were enabled by the military pressure put on Hamas. 3) A senior Hamas leader was widely reported killed just 2 days ago. 4) You don't know how many homes have been destroyed. The UN estimates 65,000 homes. The highest estimate quoted here by the Guardian is 33%. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-th... I'm happy to believe that Israel has committed war crimes, and it would not surprise me. I worry about ethnic cleansing too - though that will be shown by what happens after the war and not by the fact that Israel encourages civilians to flee a war zone. Claims of genocide are overblown, and I suggest you should tone down your heated rhetoric. The original context was one guy making a lot of inaccurate claims; a second person doing the same does not weaken my case.