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The question would be then what the beginning of quantum mechanics is. They are also laws and why do they exist? The question "why" is probably wrong here, that

by sek 14y ago

The question would be then what the beginning of quantum mechanics is. They are also laws and why do they exist? The question "why" is probably wrong here, that implies a reason where we will never find one. These thoughts that we are a product of nothingness with fluctuations make me really feel weird. There is probably an eternity outside of our universe, something that we have to accept and that there is no reason for it.

cristianpascu 14y ago
The question "why" does not necessarily point to a purpose, although we can not 'a apriori' exclude that possible purpose from being there. You could see it as two folds answer: either the laws and this "nothing" simply exists, or something else created them. There's really no need to keep asking "what, then, created the creator", for simply things are the way they are and not necessarily as in the explanation we find satisfactory. It could be that the Universe has no creator (I personally find it highly improbable), it could be that it has one creator, or N. I can't be absolutely certain and we can't really check. All we can do is have an opinion/belief about it.
- mangodrunk 14y ago
  >There's really no need to keep asking "what, then, created the creator", for simply things are the way they are and not necessarily as in the explanation we find satisfactory. The same thing could be said for anything and why wouldn't you just stop at the universe instead? >It could be that the Universe has no creator (I personally find it highly improbable) How is this improbable? Do you have evidence or something that would lead you to such a claim? Also, what do you mean by "creator"? >I can't be absolutely certain and we can't really check. All we can do is have an opinion/belief about it. How do you know this? Isn't that a claim of certainty that you said we don't have. If we don't have evidence or any logical reasons for something, then guesses aren't sufficient explanations.
  - cristianpascu 14y ago
    As I said, I have an opinion/belief. If I had evidence, it would be more than an opinion. But it's not. As for the certainty, no one so far has created a test, not even theoretically, to discern between a created and an uncreated thing. At least I'm not aware of any. Still, epistemologically, beliefs can be shown to be true, although they are not justified. Sometimes it's pure luck, some other times it's insufficient justifications. When I say it's improbable, it's a statement of belief. Not my intention to be persuasive.
    - derleth 14y ago
      > As for the certainty, no one so far has created a test, not even theoretically, to discern between a created and an uncreated thing. It's simple: Demonstrate the existence of the creator. > As I said, I have an opinion/belief. Why?
      - cristianpascu 14y ago
        If you prefer Mercedes to BMW, and a total stranger comes to you asking "Why?", would you feel obliged to answer?
        slurgfest 14y ago
        Is this really a matter of trivial preference like that?
        cristianpascu 14y ago
        I don't it's trivial. It's a matter of life and death. But my death and my life. It's not that I don't have an answer, but I don't like feeling interrogated. :)
        mangodrunk 14y ago
        This isn't an interrogation, but you said some things which I think deserved critique. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it so, nor is it something that should be respected. You don't have any legitimate reasons to say these things so you hide behind opinion as if because it is an opinion it's above scrutiny.
khafra 14y ago
If it makes you feel better "eternity outside of our universe" is an incoherent concept; as time without particles moving around makes no sense[1] [1] http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2190 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2190
mangodrunk 14y ago
>There is probably an eternity outside of our universe, something that we have to accept and that there is no reason for it. What do you mean by "an eternity outside of our universe"? If you can reconcile that, then why is it hard to think that our universe would have no beginning?

by sek 14y ago

cristianpascu 14y ago

The question "why" does not necessarily point to a purpose, although we can not 'a apriori' exclude that possible purpose from being there. You could see it as two folds answer: either the laws and this "nothing" simply exists, or something else created them. There's really no need to keep asking "what, then, created the creator", for simply things are the way they are and not necessarily as in the explanation we find satisfactory. It could be that the Universe has no creator (I personally find it highly improbable), it could be that it has one creator, or N. I can't be absolutely certain and we can't really check. All we can do is have an opinion/belief about it.

mangodrunk 14y ago
>There's really no need to keep asking "what, then, created the creator", for simply things are the way they are and not necessarily as in the explanation we find satisfactory. The same thing could be said for anything and why wouldn't you just stop at the universe instead? >It could be that the Universe has no creator (I personally find it highly improbable) How is this improbable? Do you have evidence or something that would lead you to such a claim? Also, what do you mean by "creator"? >I can't be absolutely certain and we can't really check. All we can do is have an opinion/belief about it. How do you know this? Isn't that a claim of certainty that you said we don't have. If we don't have evidence or any logical reasons for something, then guesses aren't sufficient explanations.
- cristianpascu 14y ago
  As I said, I have an opinion/belief. If I had evidence, it would be more than an opinion. But it's not. As for the certainty, no one so far has created a test, not even theoretically, to discern between a created and an uncreated thing. At least I'm not aware of any. Still, epistemologically, beliefs can be shown to be true, although they are not justified. Sometimes it's pure luck, some other times it's insufficient justifications. When I say it's improbable, it's a statement of belief. Not my intention to be persuasive.
  - derleth 14y ago
    > As for the certainty, no one so far has created a test, not even theoretically, to discern between a created and an uncreated thing. It's simple: Demonstrate the existence of the creator. > As I said, I have an opinion/belief. Why?
    - cristianpascu 14y ago
      If you prefer Mercedes to BMW, and a total stranger comes to you asking "Why?", would you feel obliged to answer?
      - slurgfest 14y ago
        Is this really a matter of trivial preference like that?
        cristianpascu 14y ago
        I don't it's trivial. It's a matter of life and death. But my death and my life. It's not that I don't have an answer, but I don't like feeling interrogated. :)
        mangodrunk 14y ago
        This isn't an interrogation, but you said some things which I think deserved critique. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it so, nor is it something that should be respected. You don't have any legitimate reasons to say these things so you hide behind opinion as if because it is an opinion it's above scrutiny.

khafra 14y ago

If it makes you feel better "eternity outside of our universe" is an incoherent concept; as time without particles moving around makes no sense[1] [1] http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2190 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2190

mangodrunk 14y ago

>There is probably an eternity outside of our universe, something that we have to accept and that there is no reason for it. What do you mean by "an eternity outside of our universe"? If you can reconcile that, then why is it hard to think that our universe would have no beginning?