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That just isn’t important. The point is that the average non-techy person would be overwhelmed by the average Linux install. Regardless of distro. That’s Linu

by louthy 3y ago

That just isn’t important. The point is that the average non-techy person would be overwhelmed by the average Linux install. Regardless of distro. That’s Linux’s biggest cross to bear

Almondsetat 3y ago
Seems like an excuse to hide what you did and claim your problems to be universal
- louthy 3y ago
  Believe what you like. I’m trying make a serious point.
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    Making a serious point and witholding important information is an oxymoron
    - louthy 3y ago
      Have you thought of joining a Linux support forum from the 90s? You'd fit in really well.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        Unlike the other commenter, you make personal attacks here and yet you are too convinced about your high ground.
        louthy 3y ago
        > "Seems like an excuse to hide what you did and claim your problems to be universal" He literally tried to imply incompetence. That is a personal attack. When the entire point of this thread was to empathise with non-techy people installing and setting up a Linux distro. It's not about me, I'm able to resolve issues that come up with the myriad operating-systems I've used in the four decades of using and programming computers. Instead this commenter got into one of those "my operating system is better than your operating system" childish positions and trying to question my competence rather than deal with the point. Really, I was trying to state that Linux (all distros) still have some ways to go before the average human would be comfortable with it - especially once you fall off the happy path. The things that make Linux strong for the power user (myriad choices for everything, open-source, CLI driven) are not at all what normal humans want - they don't want a million options, they don't want to run scripts, they couldn't care less about the open-sourciness (other than it's free), etc. The motivations and incentives are different. And for sure, Windows and OSX have their own problems, but mostly you stay on the happy path because they always have the drivers made for them, which means it's rare that a device or something doesn't work. And if something does go wrong then there's usually either the vendor (who sold them the device) or a single place on the internet to go to find out how to resolve. This whole thread from my original comment down shows exactly how far away from the average user the Linux community still is. The default answer when someone has problems is "well, stop being so shit, be better - it's your fault". Or, "I've never had that issue, you're an idiot". Of course those are sweeping generalisations, and I've made the point elsewhere that the Linux community has made great strides - but if we're ever going to have the year of the Linux desktop (I mean real Windows-denting momentum, not just the odd Linux laptop) then more needs to be done, and some of the shitty attitudes need to change. Sent from my Linux Distro.
        fsflover 3y ago
        Well, I was talking about last two comments of yours. You did have a point ellsewhere. > Really, I was trying to state that Linux (all distros) still have some ways to go before the average human would be comfortable with it - especially once you fall off the happy path. This is just not true. Average humans buy preinstalled. If it's preinstalled, it doesn't matter whether it's Windows or Linux. Sent from my Librem 5.
        Almondsetat 3y ago
        You wrote a bunch of baseless projections. This explains the tone of your other replies.
Macha 3y ago
They would also be overwhelmed by the average Windows install if they had to perform it themselves. However, these days you can get laptops with Linux preinstalled, even from mainstream OEMs like Dell or HP.
- louthy 3y ago
  I dunno, installing Windows from scratch is still pretty slick. You don't normally end up having to do extra work to get basic things like Bluetooth working, or whatever. Pre-installed Linux laptops is great - and is clearly the way to get someone less techy on-the-way. But, for most, if they're sick of Windows and they want to move (dual boot their machine) then god help them. Linux is much better than it was, for sure, and I think the community is much better at answering questions than it was - it's less patronising than it used to be (like this guy [1]) - but I when I think of most people who I know who use Windows (non techy users), and whether I think they could survive in a Linux environment - I have to say no, still, which is a shame. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38903915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38903915
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    > installing Windows from scratch is still pretty slick. You don't normally end up having to do extra work to get basic things like Bluetooth working, or whatever. Did it... get a lot better recently? Last time I installed Windows on a laptop I had "fun" getting it the drivers so it could use the Wi-Fi card so it could pull the rest of itself down.
    - louthy 3y ago
      I guess I’ve always been lucky with Windows, it has always resolved all my devices automagically. The only thing I need to manually install is the drivers for my UAD Octo card. The last but one Linux Mint install I did didn’t even recognise the mouse and keyboard I had plugged in, haha! (The installer recognised them, but not the OS post install!) It turned out I needed a slightly different flavour of mint, but yeah, the average user might even throw in the towel at that point.

by louthy 3y ago

That just isn’t important. The point is that the average non-techy person would be overwhelmed by the average Linux install. Regardless of distro. That’s Linux’s biggest cross to bear

Almondsetat 3y ago

Seems like an excuse to hide what you did and claim your problems to be universal

louthy 3y ago
Believe what you like. I’m trying make a serious point.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Making a serious point and witholding important information is an oxymoron
  - louthy 3y ago
    Have you thought of joining a Linux support forum from the 90s? You'd fit in really well.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Unlike the other commenter, you make personal attacks here and yet you are too convinced about your high ground.
      - louthy 3y ago
        > "Seems like an excuse to hide what you did and claim your problems to be universal" He literally tried to imply incompetence. That is a personal attack. When the entire point of this thread was to empathise with non-techy people installing and setting up a Linux distro. It's not about me, I'm able to resolve issues that come up with the myriad operating-systems I've used in the four decades of using and programming computers. Instead this commenter got into one of those "my operating system is better than your operating system" childish positions and trying to question my competence rather than deal with the point. Really, I was trying to state that Linux (all distros) still have some ways to go before the average human would be comfortable with it - especially once you fall off the happy path. The things that make Linux strong for the power user (myriad choices for everything, open-source, CLI driven) are not at all what normal humans want - they don't want a million options, they don't want to run scripts, they couldn't care less about the open-sourciness (other than it's free), etc. The motivations and incentives are different. And for sure, Windows and OSX have their own problems, but mostly you stay on the happy path because they always have the drivers made for them, which means it's rare that a device or something doesn't work. And if something does go wrong then there's usually either the vendor (who sold them the device) or a single place on the internet to go to find out how to resolve. This whole thread from my original comment down shows exactly how far away from the average user the Linux community still is. The default answer when someone has problems is "well, stop being so shit, be better - it's your fault". Or, "I've never had that issue, you're an idiot". Of course those are sweeping generalisations, and I've made the point elsewhere that the Linux community has made great strides - but if we're ever going to have the year of the Linux desktop (I mean real Windows-denting momentum, not just the odd Linux laptop) then more needs to be done, and some of the shitty attitudes need to change. Sent from my Linux Distro.
        fsflover 3y ago
        Well, I was talking about last two comments of yours. You did have a point ellsewhere. > Really, I was trying to state that Linux (all distros) still have some ways to go before the average human would be comfortable with it - especially once you fall off the happy path. This is just not true. Average humans buy preinstalled. If it's preinstalled, it doesn't matter whether it's Windows or Linux. Sent from my Librem 5.
        Almondsetat 3y ago
        You wrote a bunch of baseless projections. This explains the tone of your other replies.

Macha 3y ago

They would also be overwhelmed by the average Windows install if they had to perform it themselves. However, these days you can get laptops with Linux preinstalled, even from mainstream OEMs like Dell or HP.

louthy 3y ago
I dunno, installing Windows from scratch is still pretty slick. You don't normally end up having to do extra work to get basic things like Bluetooth working, or whatever. Pre-installed Linux laptops is great - and is clearly the way to get someone less techy on-the-way. But, for most, if they're sick of Windows and they want to move (dual boot their machine) then god help them. Linux is much better than it was, for sure, and I think the community is much better at answering questions than it was - it's less patronising than it used to be (like this guy [1]) - but I when I think of most people who I know who use Windows (non techy users), and whether I think they could survive in a Linux environment - I have to say no, still, which is a shame. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38903915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38903915
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > installing Windows from scratch is still pretty slick. You don't normally end up having to do extra work to get basic things like Bluetooth working, or whatever. Did it... get a lot better recently? Last time I installed Windows on a laptop I had "fun" getting it the drivers so it could use the Wi-Fi card so it could pull the rest of itself down.
  - louthy 3y ago
    I guess I’ve always been lucky with Windows, it has always resolved all my devices automagically. The only thing I need to manually install is the drivers for my UAD Octo card. The last but one Linux Mint install I did didn’t even recognise the mouse and keyboard I had plugged in, haha! (The installer recognised them, but not the OS post install!) It turned out I needed a slightly different flavour of mint, but yeah, the average user might even throw in the towel at that point.