10 ms·

> Installing Linux 22-years ago, when XP shipped, was hugely painful and only the most technical would attempt it. That’s still the case with Linux now. I did

by louthy 3y ago

> Installing Linux 22-years ago, when XP shipped, was hugely painful and only the most technical would attempt it. That’s still the case with Linux now. I did two recent Linux installs (different distros) and it’s still a nightmare of finding drivers, scripts, etc. to get everything setup. On one of my devices it still doesn’t recognise all the USB ports attached to the motherboard (but does recognise some), I just got tired of trying to discover why. It’s still often the case that BIOS changes are required, etc. Linux is not accessible to the average non-technical user at all. The moment one thing goes wrong, they’re done. Windows is going in the wrong direction for sure, but still when it comes to everything “just working”, it’s hard to beat.

bongodongobob 3y ago
Yup. I have two separate playbooks for my laptop and desktop for all the quirky shit that needs to happen to get a working install. Yes, you can get to a usable desktop pretty quickly. But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024.
- louthy 3y ago
  > But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024… … for someone who knows what they’re doing. Anyone non-technical would be terrified of the steps needed to get a Linux install into a good state for their machine. It could easily take them days to get a setup that's sound (depending on the level of driver support for their hardware). To be fair, one of the installs I did was Raspberry PI OS (funnily enough for a Raspberry PI!) - and that was the smoothest Linux install I’ve ever had. So having a distro tuned to the hardware really does go a long way!
- Eduard 3y ago
  > But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024. If you mean Linux, "a week or better" is a more realistic, yet still optimistic estimate to get "everything right". Until the next odd regressions come in during a follow-up update.
AshamedCaptain 3y ago
> Linux is not accessible to the average non-technical user at all. The moment one thing goes wrong, they’re done. How is this different from Windows, macOS or any other operating system these days exactly? It's not like things don't go wrong there...
DANmode 3y ago
> when it comes to everything “just working”, it’s hard to beat. You've never had updates bork your Windows machine, its drivers etc a few hours before an important meeting, I see!
- tsss 3y ago
  No, but I've had at least ten counts of apt gimping itself somehow during an update. Who here isn't intimately familiar with > Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock
  - DANmode 3y ago
    I've had over ten of each.
    - Eduard 3y ago
      Cancel meetings - updates then can't bork your system just before them.
      - DANmode 3y ago
        Just started carrying two machines, or having a remote desktop standing by to present via someone else's screen.
- Sakos 3y ago
  I've had the same issue with Linux. It's far from immune. I've also generally found it easier to recover a borked Windows install than a Linux one.
  - soraminazuki 3y ago
    I never had that issue with NixOS.
Almondsetat 3y ago
It's always interesting to see people complain about linux installation without mentioning the distro chosen and what they did.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Ubuntu mostly, and I have plenty of experience with Linux distros since Slackware 2.0 in 1995, so no need for the typical answer that I am holding it wrong, once upon a time I jumped across distros on regular basis.
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    If you have hardware that has linux support then everything should work at install time or after install. Ubuntu also has a dedicated program to show you the available proprietary drivers you might want to use. Unless you your hardware is so new that it requires the very latest kernel then you should be golden.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Thanks for the typical Linux forum reply, not even mentioning that I have Linux experience since 1995 was enough to avoid it.
      - Almondsetat 3y ago
        Avoiding providing details is what gets you the standard Linux forum reply. Generic complaints foster generic replies
        pjmlp 3y ago
        This is going the Slashdot way, thanks for bringing up some nostalgia back.
        olddustytrail 3y ago
ponorin 3y ago
I've tried installing Windows 10 to my old ("old" as in Ryzen 2000 series) HP laptop so that I can give it out, and it took forever to install all the updates. Windows Update sucks even when you give permission to do whatever it wants; super slow, doesn't know what to prioritise, and unable to just jump to the newest release. And even then it missed some drivers, especially the fingerprint sensor, so to this day Windows Hello still doesn't work. Remember this device originally shipped with Windows. I can install Fedora Linux on my Surface Go with my eyes closed, barely touching the keyboard. Everything that is supported works out of the box and it doesn't take a day and a half.
- hypercube33 3y ago
  That's not exactly fair. hp flops on its face with the software realm (drivers, firmware) and deploying windows to any is a nightmare of missing drivers. The surface is more constrained to specific hardware so I think any operating system would be easy to kick to it much like a Thinkpad.
  - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
    No, it's not. There's a known bug where the Surface will not turn on/off the IR camera during the login process, resulting in either a "can't turn on camera, please enter PIN" message or worse: leaving the IR camera on after login significantly reducing its lifetime (it gets hot to the touch) and doing god knows what to your eyes. Of course, everyone is quick to blame the manufacturer when it comes to drivers, even when the MS supposedly vets these drivers and even when the manufacturer is MS itself.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    You can also find hardware on which Linux will install just fine. We should blame to OS for driver issues or not, either way, but we can’t have a double standard.
- bongodongobob 3y ago
  Well, if you're using an old Windows 10 installer (my assumption), yeah, that's just how it goes. Like, if you're starting at Win 10 1909, that's like upgrading Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04. Start with an updated installer and you'll have a better time.
bluedays 3y ago
Whenever I read stuff like this it always sounds made up. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve installed Linux and I’ve literally never had these issues.
- k8svet 3y ago
  > still a nightmare of finding drivers, scripts, etc. to get everything setup It reads like the prototypical "I tried Linux a decade ago and keep repeating the experience as if it represents reality today". Hell, 10 years ago was when I met my ex and I can't remember any time during that period that I actually "struggled" with anything other than Nvidia+Wayland before I stopped giving Nvidia money. "finding drivers"? really? For what? I can't remember the last time I've even heard of anyone mentioning compiling a module manually. Running random scripts from the Internet haphazardly trying to "fix" stuff? Yeah, okay, I'm getting a mental image. I can't name the last thing or feature that required any amount of fiddling to get working in Linux. Premium webcams, audio equipment, Chromebooks, Lenovos, ASUS gaming laptops, brand new laptops, 3 USB-C hubs, complicated docked, multi-monitor scenarios. It all has just worked out of box with Linux and NixOS, and requires less maintenance and hand holding than my single Windows dual-boot install.
  - louthy 3y ago
    Great anecdote, thanks for sharing. But the next time you decide to be a patronising asshole to someone you’ve never met and who very likely has significantly more experience than you, maybe remember this meme [1] Because it describes you completely. The point, in case you completely missed it, is to empathise with the average user. Not me, I’m able to resolve the issues that arise in Linux land (or know when to stop), the average user can very quickly drown. [1] https://media.tenor.com/QIvah8HkvzgAAAAM/the-point-over-your-head.gif https://media.tenor.com/QIvah8HkvzgAAAAM/the-point-over-your...
    - fsflover 3y ago
      The average user can't fix things on Windows, too.
    - 3y ago
doublepg23 3y ago
The only "just working" OSes are Android and iOS/iPadOS.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > The only "just working" OSes are Android and iOS/iPadOS. Ha! Try installing a newer version of one of these than the last one the device OEM supported. "Doing this is so difficult that you should abandon all hope and give up immediately" is the same as "just works" in the same way that a car crusher is a good way to secure a computer.
- Eduard 3y ago
  Better don't run logcat for like 10 minutes of normal Android usage, or you'll be disappointed what actually is going wrong behind the curtains.
znpy 3y ago
In my experience nowadays, if you use a mainstream distro life ubuntu or fedora, drivers either are built in/in the repos, or don’t exist at all. Notable exception for those assholes at nVidia. Can’t say the same for windows, i still have to download printer/scanner drivers like it’s 2005.

by louthy 3y ago

bongodongobob 3y ago

Yup. I have two separate playbooks for my laptop and desktop for all the quirky shit that needs to happen to get a working install. Yes, you can get to a usable desktop pretty quickly. But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024.

louthy 3y ago
> But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024… … for someone who knows what they’re doing. Anyone non-technical would be terrified of the steps needed to get a Linux install into a good state for their machine. It could easily take them days to get a setup that's sound (depending on the level of driver support for their hardware). To be fair, one of the installs I did was Raspberry PI OS (funnily enough for a Raspberry PI!) - and that was the smoothest Linux install I’ve ever had. So having a distro tuned to the hardware really does go a long way!
Eduard 3y ago
> But getting everything right is still an hour or better process, post-install, in 2024. If you mean Linux, "a week or better" is a more realistic, yet still optimistic estimate to get "everything right". Until the next odd regressions come in during a follow-up update.

AshamedCaptain 3y ago

> Linux is not accessible to the average non-technical user at all. The moment one thing goes wrong, they’re done. How is this different from Windows, macOS or any other operating system these days exactly? It's not like things don't go wrong there...

DANmode 3y ago

> when it comes to everything “just working”, it’s hard to beat. You've never had updates bork your Windows machine, its drivers etc a few hours before an important meeting, I see!

tsss 3y ago
No, but I've had at least ten counts of apt gimping itself somehow during an update. Who here isn't intimately familiar with > Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock
- DANmode 3y ago
  I've had over ten of each.
  - Eduard 3y ago
    Cancel meetings - updates then can't bork your system just before them.
    - DANmode 3y ago
      Just started carrying two machines, or having a remote desktop standing by to present via someone else's screen.
Sakos 3y ago
I've had the same issue with Linux. It's far from immune. I've also generally found it easier to recover a borked Windows install than a Linux one.
- soraminazuki 3y ago
  I never had that issue with NixOS.

Almondsetat 3y ago

It's always interesting to see people complain about linux installation without mentioning the distro chosen and what they did.

pjmlp 3y ago
Ubuntu mostly, and I have plenty of experience with Linux distros since Slackware 2.0 in 1995, so no need for the typical answer that I am holding it wrong, once upon a time I jumped across distros on regular basis.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  If you have hardware that has linux support then everything should work at install time or after install. Ubuntu also has a dedicated program to show you the available proprietary drivers you might want to use. Unless you your hardware is so new that it requires the very latest kernel then you should be golden.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Thanks for the typical Linux forum reply, not even mentioning that I have Linux experience since 1995 was enough to avoid it.
    - Almondsetat 3y ago
      Avoiding providing details is what gets you the standard Linux forum reply. Generic complaints foster generic replies
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        This is going the Slashdot way, thanks for bringing up some nostalgia back.
        olddustytrail 3y ago

ponorin 3y ago

I've tried installing Windows 10 to my old ("old" as in Ryzen 2000 series) HP laptop so that I can give it out, and it took forever to install all the updates. Windows Update sucks even when you give permission to do whatever it wants; super slow, doesn't know what to prioritise, and unable to just jump to the newest release. And even then it missed some drivers, especially the fingerprint sensor, so to this day Windows Hello still doesn't work. Remember this device originally shipped with Windows. I can install Fedora Linux on my Surface Go with my eyes closed, barely touching the keyboard. Everything that is supported works out of the box and it doesn't take a day and a half.

hypercube33 3y ago
That's not exactly fair. hp flops on its face with the software realm (drivers, firmware) and deploying windows to any is a nightmare of missing drivers. The surface is more constrained to specific hardware so I think any operating system would be easy to kick to it much like a Thinkpad.
- AshamedCaptain 3y ago
  No, it's not. There's a known bug where the Surface will not turn on/off the IR camera during the login process, resulting in either a "can't turn on camera, please enter PIN" message or worse: leaving the IR camera on after login significantly reducing its lifetime (it gets hot to the touch) and doing god knows what to your eyes. Of course, everyone is quick to blame the manufacturer when it comes to drivers, even when the MS supposedly vets these drivers and even when the manufacturer is MS itself.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  You can also find hardware on which Linux will install just fine. We should blame to OS for driver issues or not, either way, but we can’t have a double standard.
bongodongobob 3y ago
Well, if you're using an old Windows 10 installer (my assumption), yeah, that's just how it goes. Like, if you're starting at Win 10 1909, that's like upgrading Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04. Start with an updated installer and you'll have a better time.

bluedays 3y ago

Whenever I read stuff like this it always sounds made up. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve installed Linux and I’ve literally never had these issues.

k8svet 3y ago
> still a nightmare of finding drivers, scripts, etc. to get everything setup It reads like the prototypical "I tried Linux a decade ago and keep repeating the experience as if it represents reality today". Hell, 10 years ago was when I met my ex and I can't remember any time during that period that I actually "struggled" with anything other than Nvidia+Wayland before I stopped giving Nvidia money. "finding drivers"? really? For what? I can't remember the last time I've even heard of anyone mentioning compiling a module manually. Running random scripts from the Internet haphazardly trying to "fix" stuff? Yeah, okay, I'm getting a mental image. I can't name the last thing or feature that required any amount of fiddling to get working in Linux. Premium webcams, audio equipment, Chromebooks, Lenovos, ASUS gaming laptops, brand new laptops, 3 USB-C hubs, complicated docked, multi-monitor scenarios. It all has just worked out of box with Linux and NixOS, and requires less maintenance and hand holding than my single Windows dual-boot install.
- louthy 3y ago
  Great anecdote, thanks for sharing. But the next time you decide to be a patronising asshole to someone you’ve never met and who very likely has significantly more experience than you, maybe remember this meme [1] Because it describes you completely. The point, in case you completely missed it, is to empathise with the average user. Not me, I’m able to resolve the issues that arise in Linux land (or know when to stop), the average user can very quickly drown. [1] https://media.tenor.com/QIvah8HkvzgAAAAM/the-point-over-your-head.gif https://media.tenor.com/QIvah8HkvzgAAAAM/the-point-over-your...
  - fsflover 3y ago
    The average user can't fix things on Windows, too.
  - 3y ago

doublepg23 3y ago

The only "just working" OSes are Android and iOS/iPadOS.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> The only "just working" OSes are Android and iOS/iPadOS. Ha! Try installing a newer version of one of these than the last one the device OEM supported. "Doing this is so difficult that you should abandon all hope and give up immediately" is the same as "just works" in the same way that a car crusher is a good way to secure a computer.
Eduard 3y ago
Better don't run logcat for like 10 minutes of normal Android usage, or you'll be disappointed what actually is going wrong behind the curtains.

znpy 3y ago

In my experience nowadays, if you use a mainstream distro life ubuntu or fedora, drivers either are built in/in the repos, or don’t exist at all. Notable exception for those assholes at nVidia. Can’t say the same for windows, i still have to download printer/scanner drivers like it’s 2005.