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I actually think the .xxx TLD plan from a few years ago was about the best version of this legislation that could exist - essentially adult content would be lim

I actually think the .xxx TLD plan from a few years ago was about the best version of this legislation that could exist - essentially adult content would be limited to a certain subset of blockable TLDs. If a site is showing adult content and not on an adult TLD, it risks a state-level block until it's compliant. This seems much easier to police, gives 80% of what the legislators are trying to achieve, and doesn't require entrusting KYC to a bunch of dodgy websites. Sure, it won't block VPNs and there would be problems at the start while things migrate, but if realistically your goal is to keep kids off adult websites then it's at least more reasonable than this proposal to entrust the parents/guardians with some amount of responsibility to make sure the safeguards can't be circumvented on their kids' devices.

jampekka 3y ago
There's no way of getting kids from getting porn if they really want it. We had plenty of VHS and magazine porn as kids even though shops didn't sell them to kids. Current mainstream porn sites curate off the most hardcore stuff quite well. The dark web versions that will pop up due to draconian KYC will definitely not have such curation.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  I'm not a big fan of this form black or white thinking. We could apply this to guns, bombs, drugs and conclude that it was pointless to reduce numbers. In it's extreme form, a sufficiently motivated teenager built a homemade neutron source[1] therefore we shouldn't control nuclear material. I just don't think this argument, taken to its logical conclusion, is valid. Is there a better way of reformulating it? 1. Silverstein, K. (2005). Radioactive boy scout: The frightening true story of a whiz kid and his homemade nuclear reactor. Turtleback Books.
  - jampekka 3y ago
    I didn't say there should be no restrictions for guns, bombs, drugs or even porn, even though they can't be fully rooted out. The problem is the thinking that they can be rooted out. War-on-Porn would have just as horrible effects as War-on-Drugs has. As for porn, I think the potential effects of it to kids are way overblown. Children should be educated (age appropriately of course) about sexuality so they can handle the stuff and situations they will see at some point anyway.
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      It's important to clarify why you think this standard applies to the things I've mentioned, but not to porn. There's some decision-making going on that isn't apparent. I think porn is underblown, so it seems like we're at a bit of an impasse.
      - jampekka 3y ago
        > It's important to clarify why you think this standard applies to the things I've mentioned, but not to porn. I do think this standard applies to porn, and e.g. the .xxx TLD wouldn't be KYC. And probably wouldn't cause as big a dark web porn explosion. For me porn is in a bit different category from guns and bombs, and from drugs too. Guns and bombs and some drugs kill. Porn probably borns if something.
        kelseyfrog 3y ago
        It kinda sounds like our differing perspectives are the biggest factors on the social effects of porn and subsequently our openness to compensating actions. Does that sound suspicious at all?
        jampekka 3y ago
        We probably differ in assessment of social effects of porn. I don't find it very harmful at all. In the balance porn may be even beneficial if it helps to remove harmful taboos and hangups about sexuality. In fact I find it totally absurd how depictions of horrible violence is quite OK for people who are shocked about genitals. Or profanity. And I find that advertising in general, especially for children but also for adults, is more harmful than even the violence. We probably disagree. I think my opinions are quite well founded, but so do probably you.
        kelseyfrog 3y ago
        What bar would you place on evidence that would change your mind?
- akira2501 3y ago
  > We had plenty of VHS and magazine porn as kids even though shops didn't sell them to kids. Having second hand access and having direct access to a market are entirely different things. The fact that the secondary access might in some cases exist is not an excuse to punt on the actual primary problem. > The dark web versions that will pop up due to draconian KYC will definitely not have such curation. If we measured legislation by it's ability to perfectly secure a market, we would have no legislation at all. Fortunately, we can measure the positive impacts of things and compare them, and I suspect, that there are actually significant positive benefits to creating some form of limiting legislation here. It's also the case that draconian KYC implementations aren't the only way to solve this problem, in this case, I believe it's lazy or ideologically possessed politicians who want to use this as an excuse to implement these laws for other purposes.

jampekka 3y ago

There's no way of getting kids from getting porn if they really want it. We had plenty of VHS and magazine porn as kids even though shops didn't sell them to kids. Current mainstream porn sites curate off the most hardcore stuff quite well. The dark web versions that will pop up due to draconian KYC will definitely not have such curation.

kelseyfrog 3y ago
I'm not a big fan of this form black or white thinking. We could apply this to guns, bombs, drugs and conclude that it was pointless to reduce numbers. In it's extreme form, a sufficiently motivated teenager built a homemade neutron source[1] therefore we shouldn't control nuclear material. I just don't think this argument, taken to its logical conclusion, is valid. Is there a better way of reformulating it? 1. Silverstein, K. (2005). Radioactive boy scout: The frightening true story of a whiz kid and his homemade nuclear reactor. Turtleback Books.
- jampekka 3y ago
  I didn't say there should be no restrictions for guns, bombs, drugs or even porn, even though they can't be fully rooted out. The problem is the thinking that they can be rooted out. War-on-Porn would have just as horrible effects as War-on-Drugs has. As for porn, I think the potential effects of it to kids are way overblown. Children should be educated (age appropriately of course) about sexuality so they can handle the stuff and situations they will see at some point anyway.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    It's important to clarify why you think this standard applies to the things I've mentioned, but not to porn. There's some decision-making going on that isn't apparent. I think porn is underblown, so it seems like we're at a bit of an impasse.
    - jampekka 3y ago
      > It's important to clarify why you think this standard applies to the things I've mentioned, but not to porn. I do think this standard applies to porn, and e.g. the .xxx TLD wouldn't be KYC. And probably wouldn't cause as big a dark web porn explosion. For me porn is in a bit different category from guns and bombs, and from drugs too. Guns and bombs and some drugs kill. Porn probably borns if something.
      - kelseyfrog 3y ago
        It kinda sounds like our differing perspectives are the biggest factors on the social effects of porn and subsequently our openness to compensating actions. Does that sound suspicious at all?
        jampekka 3y ago
        We probably differ in assessment of social effects of porn. I don't find it very harmful at all. In the balance porn may be even beneficial if it helps to remove harmful taboos and hangups about sexuality. In fact I find it totally absurd how depictions of horrible violence is quite OK for people who are shocked about genitals. Or profanity. And I find that advertising in general, especially for children but also for adults, is more harmful than even the violence. We probably disagree. I think my opinions are quite well founded, but so do probably you.
        kelseyfrog 3y ago
        What bar would you place on evidence that would change your mind?
akira2501 3y ago
> We had plenty of VHS and magazine porn as kids even though shops didn't sell them to kids. Having second hand access and having direct access to a market are entirely different things. The fact that the secondary access might in some cases exist is not an excuse to punt on the actual primary problem. > The dark web versions that will pop up due to draconian KYC will definitely not have such curation. If we measured legislation by it's ability to perfectly secure a market, we would have no legislation at all. Fortunately, we can measure the positive impacts of things and compare them, and I suspect, that there are actually significant positive benefits to creating some form of limiting legislation here. It's also the case that draconian KYC implementations aren't the only way to solve this problem, in this case, I believe it's lazy or ideologically possessed politicians who want to use this as an excuse to implement these laws for other purposes.