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> they don't want to risk their lives defending it Well, defending it is something else entirely. Being sent to a remote outpost in Afghanistan without even a

> they don't want to risk their lives defending it Well, defending it is something else entirely. Being sent to a remote outpost in Afghanistan without even a broad objective for any US soldiers being there to complete is only arguably "defending" and quite a poor argument at that. The country, itself, is well defended without me.

robcohen 3y ago
While I can understand your concerns here, there is something profoundly damaging about thinking a democratically-led military is no longer serving the public interest. Essentially it's a no-confidence vote in the political system, which if you really consider from a moral perspective, requires correcting the system. What's wild to me is that people can essentially have no confidence in their political system, but do almost nothing to change it. It seems deeply wrong to continue to participate and to pay taxes into a system that one has no confidence in. What seems more likely is that morality never played a role in this decision, and instead its a scapegoat for not taking personal responsibility for one's role in the system.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  Well, right now, I'm more than happy to pay it because the existence and defense of Ukraine is worth way more to me than that money. I was just referring to the attitude that would arise from the public that was fatigued by conflicts prior to Ukraine. It's not that I oppose the existence of the military, especially not under the current circumstances. But I'm saying it was more than understandable how many would have viewed it only a few years ago. "Defending freedom" was just an empty tagline back then that lacked even a tenuous case.
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  > It seems deeply wrong to continue to participate and to pay taxes into a system that one has no confidence in. What seems more likely is that morality never played a role in this decision, and instead its a scapegoat for not taking personal responsibility for one's role in the system. I have a moral responsibility not to participate in unjust wars, it absolutely was a moral decision. I assume there are very many like me.
- ElevenLathe 3y ago
  Give unto Caesar...
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Who says I'm paying taxes or participating?
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Recent polling suggests half of one of the parties would flee rather than defend.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  And if Russia were the invader, we both know that more than half of them would join them as collaborators. Truth is that flag-worship has always been a piss poor indicator of actual patriotism.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    You know that I know that you know that you don’t really believe that.

robcohen 3y ago

While I can understand your concerns here, there is something profoundly damaging about thinking a democratically-led military is no longer serving the public interest. Essentially it's a no-confidence vote in the political system, which if you really consider from a moral perspective, requires correcting the system. What's wild to me is that people can essentially have no confidence in their political system, but do almost nothing to change it. It seems deeply wrong to continue to participate and to pay taxes into a system that one has no confidence in. What seems more likely is that morality never played a role in this decision, and instead its a scapegoat for not taking personal responsibility for one's role in the system.

jakderrida 3y ago
Well, right now, I'm more than happy to pay it because the existence and defense of Ukraine is worth way more to me than that money. I was just referring to the attitude that would arise from the public that was fatigued by conflicts prior to Ukraine. It's not that I oppose the existence of the military, especially not under the current circumstances. But I'm saying it was more than understandable how many would have viewed it only a few years ago. "Defending freedom" was just an empty tagline back then that lacked even a tenuous case.
piloto_ciego 3y ago
> It seems deeply wrong to continue to participate and to pay taxes into a system that one has no confidence in. What seems more likely is that morality never played a role in this decision, and instead its a scapegoat for not taking personal responsibility for one's role in the system. I have a moral responsibility not to participate in unjust wars, it absolutely was a moral decision. I assume there are very many like me.
ElevenLathe 3y ago
Give unto Caesar...
willcipriano 3y ago
Who says I'm paying taxes or participating?

mensetmanusman 3y ago

Recent polling suggests half of one of the parties would flee rather than defend.

jakderrida 3y ago
And if Russia were the invader, we both know that more than half of them would join them as collaborators. Truth is that flag-worship has always been a piss poor indicator of actual patriotism.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  You know that I know that you know that you don’t really believe that.