3 ms·

There are oceans of non-political novels which nevertheless have something to say.

by badpun 3y ago

Arainach 3y ago
.....such as?
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  It depends on whether you see everything as political or not. Let’s choose a children’s story. What about Harry Potter? “Of course it's happening inside your head, Harry, but why should that mean it's not real?”
  - Arainach 3y ago
    The Harry Potter where the villains talk about racial purity, kill people who mix magical and non-magical blood, take over the government and use it to oppress people? That non-political Harry Potter? (Yes, also the Harry Potter where one of the black characters is named Shacklebolt, the goblins are essentially a loosely tied pile of Jewish stereotypes, and plenty of other problems as well)
    - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
      You know you've gone off the deep end when you start thinking of Harry Potter as something that contains intentional political messaging instead of something that overuses convenient off-the-shelf tropes for villains and everything else but manages to tell an engaging tale in spite of it.
      - wishinghand 3y ago
        I think that if you think those tropes are just tropes and not intentional political messaging, then there is no longer any point in discussion with your level of reading comprehension.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        In a perfect world, "racism isn't bad" wouldn't be a political message, it would be a common sense belief that everyone shared, but America and plenty of other places are still in a point where that's controversial and significant portions of the voting base are proud of their bigotry.
        Arainach 3y ago
        *is bad. What a typo to miss...
      - bigbillheck 3y ago
        > convenient off-the-shelf tropes for villains and everything else You know how people say 'not making a choice is a choice'? Same thing here.
- badpun 3y ago
  For example, most of the greatest classics, e.g. "Anna Karenina", "East of Eden", "Mice and Men", "The Idiot", "Crime and Punishment", "Frankenstein" etc. etc.
  - Arainach 3y ago
    You think "Crime and Punishment" is non-political? Have you read it? Have you read the Wikipedia summary of it? Dostoyevsky is deeply political. "These books were written long enough ago that their political arguments have been internalized in modern cultures and no longer seem controversial" does not make a work non-political. Nor does "this book only espouses views I agree with" or "I did not understand the political topics raised in this work". From your entire list: * Anna Karenina: Talks about rural and urban life, faith, and social change in the 19th century * Of Mice and Men: Talks about black people being isolated and threats of lyching. The premise of the story centers around an incident involving whether people are mentally capable of being found guilty (and false accusations) * The Idiot: Centers around society's treatment of those perceived as idiots and/or socially inept. That's still a relevant political topic today and, for its time, was at least as relevant as modern works focusing on marginalized groups such as LGBTQ, etc. It also deeply dives into religion and atheism (political hot topics then and now). It has a long monologue about capital punishment. * Crime and Punishment: The entire novel is a critique of nihilism, very much a cultural and political part of Russian society at a time, with thoughts on utilitarianism and rationalism. It's a deep dive into the radicalization of people. It also criticizes Western ideas. I'm not going to bother with the rest, as it's clear to me you're just naming books you don't understand.
    - badpun 3y ago
      > Anna Karenina: Talks about rural and urban life, faith, and social change in the 19th century Yes. But does not talk that much about politics. Unless for you the above things somehow count as politics? > The Idiot: Centers around society's treatment of those perceived as idiots and/or socially inept. Have you even read it? It's about someone so good that people treat him as an idiot. It's about morality, not politics. > Crime and Punishment: The entire novel is a critique of nihilism, very much a cultural and political part of Russian society at a time, with thoughts on utilitarianism and rationalism. It's a deep dive into the radicalization of people. It also criticizes Western ideas. Again, this is philosophy, not politics.

There are oceans of non-political novels which nevertheless have something to say.

by badpun 3y ago

There are oceans of non-political novels which nevertheless have something to say.

Arainach 3y ago

.....such as?

DiggyJohnson 3y ago
It depends on whether you see everything as political or not. Let’s choose a children’s story. What about Harry Potter? “Of course it's happening inside your head, Harry, but why should that mean it's not real?”
- Arainach 3y ago
  The Harry Potter where the villains talk about racial purity, kill people who mix magical and non-magical blood, take over the government and use it to oppress people? That non-political Harry Potter? (Yes, also the Harry Potter where one of the black characters is named Shacklebolt, the goblins are essentially a loosely tied pile of Jewish stereotypes, and plenty of other problems as well)
  - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
    You know you've gone off the deep end when you start thinking of Harry Potter as something that contains intentional political messaging instead of something that overuses convenient off-the-shelf tropes for villains and everything else but manages to tell an engaging tale in spite of it.
    - wishinghand 3y ago
      I think that if you think those tropes are just tropes and not intentional political messaging, then there is no longer any point in discussion with your level of reading comprehension.
    - Arainach 3y ago
      In a perfect world, "racism isn't bad" wouldn't be a political message, it would be a common sense belief that everyone shared, but America and plenty of other places are still in a point where that's controversial and significant portions of the voting base are proud of their bigotry.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        *is bad. What a typo to miss...
    - bigbillheck 3y ago
      > convenient off-the-shelf tropes for villains and everything else You know how people say 'not making a choice is a choice'? Same thing here.
badpun 3y ago
For example, most of the greatest classics, e.g. "Anna Karenina", "East of Eden", "Mice and Men", "The Idiot", "Crime and Punishment", "Frankenstein" etc. etc.
- Arainach 3y ago
  You think "Crime and Punishment" is non-political? Have you read it? Have you read the Wikipedia summary of it? Dostoyevsky is deeply political. "These books were written long enough ago that their political arguments have been internalized in modern cultures and no longer seem controversial" does not make a work non-political. Nor does "this book only espouses views I agree with" or "I did not understand the political topics raised in this work". From your entire list: * Anna Karenina: Talks about rural and urban life, faith, and social change in the 19th century * Of Mice and Men: Talks about black people being isolated and threats of lyching. The premise of the story centers around an incident involving whether people are mentally capable of being found guilty (and false accusations) * The Idiot: Centers around society's treatment of those perceived as idiots and/or socially inept. That's still a relevant political topic today and, for its time, was at least as relevant as modern works focusing on marginalized groups such as LGBTQ, etc. It also deeply dives into religion and atheism (political hot topics then and now). It has a long monologue about capital punishment. * Crime and Punishment: The entire novel is a critique of nihilism, very much a cultural and political part of Russian society at a time, with thoughts on utilitarianism and rationalism. It's a deep dive into the radicalization of people. It also criticizes Western ideas. I'm not going to bother with the rest, as it's clear to me you're just naming books you don't understand.
  - badpun 3y ago
    > Anna Karenina: Talks about rural and urban life, faith, and social change in the 19th century Yes. But does not talk that much about politics. Unless for you the above things somehow count as politics? > The Idiot: Centers around society's treatment of those perceived as idiots and/or socially inept. Have you even read it? It's about someone so good that people treat him as an idiot. It's about morality, not politics. > Crime and Punishment: The entire novel is a critique of nihilism, very much a cultural and political part of Russian society at a time, with thoughts on utilitarianism and rationalism. It's a deep dive into the radicalization of people. It also criticizes Western ideas. Again, this is philosophy, not politics.