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I am torn. On the one hand, this is basically pure racism and unlikely to end well. On the other, it does seem like a terrible strategy to funnel research into

by roenxi 3y ago

I am torn. On the one hand, this is basically pure racism and unlikely to end well. On the other, it does seem like a terrible strategy to funnel research into the Chinese military apparatus given that they are very culturally different from the Americas. With hindsight the West might have made a lot of mistakes with how China was engaged. There should have been more serious negotiation to make liberalising their political system part of the package when they got all that investment back in the 90s. Doesn't even need to be any compromise on the Chinese part, just some consensus between the west and the PRC that it shouldn't be a tiny handful of people running the whole show and that this reality should be obvious to everyone. It was a mistake not to be more culturally assertive about making their decision making more transparent and their military governance more democratic. It has been unhelpful to make it all just business dealings.

naasking 3y ago
What definition of "race" are you using that makes this racism? Chinese students from Canada aren't banned from such research.
- roenxi 3y ago
  This dude wants to, and I quote the article, "dedicate his career to improving China's underdevelopment of the application of advances to point-of-care technology in the field of public health". He's not being denied that because anyone objects to his aims. The problem seems to be his parents, culture and where his family comes from. Now I'll agree with you that the standard for racism is a bit fuzzy these days, but this is clearly going to meet the bar for being called "racist" when it comes to a university education in North America.
  - naasking 3y ago
    > The problem seems to be his parents, culture and where his family comes from. The problem aren't his parents, but the known history of what his government may do to his parents to force him to comply, and yes, the culture that normalized this sort of thing as being ok. You're seriously reaching by calling this racism. Even if "universities" might call it that, that doesn't make the classification sensible or coherent.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    Would the government ban: - A Taiwanese student - A Chinese student who grew up in America? - A Chinese student who grew up in Canada? - A Chinese student from a Chinese family that immigrated to Mexico? No? The ethnicities and race are similar for all the above cases. And I don’t think anyone doubts Canada would them in. Showing - race has nothing to do with this equation. Also, in many ways, it is possibly a mercy to the Chinese student himself; because then he won’t be put in a situation where the Chinese government puts his family (quite literally) at gunpoint.
    - cabalamat 3y ago
      If any of the above have relatives in the PRC that could be used as levers to coerce the student into spying for China, then that's reason to be wary.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    His stated aims are irrelevant, as are his parents and culture. The relevant point is that he is a Chinese national who can be recruited or coerced by the Chinese government. These is this entity called the People's Republic of China that is independent of Chinese people culture. That entity is the problem here.
manmtstream 3y ago
It cannot be construed as racism unless these judgements are applied on an ethnic basis, and the arguments put forth are unlikely to be repeated for Taiwanese citizens of similar ethnicity. It’s geopolitics.
tokai 3y ago
Nothing racist about it. China has a global network of shadow secret police stations on universities, controlling and using Chinese studying abroad to spy. Its a documented fact. Would be racist to just deny Chinese students whole sales, but its just prudent to deny cases with obvious connections to Chinese military, intelligence, etc. Also for the protection of our expat Chinese students that are surveilled and can get in a lot of trouble back home if their behavior abroad is deemed subversive.
- xtian 3y ago
  Where has it been documented? What is the evidence?
  - tokai 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic...
  - VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
    https://www.npr.org/2023/04/17/1170571626/fbi-arrests-2-on-charges-tied-to-chinese-outpost-in-new-york-city https://www.npr.org/2023/04/17/1170571626/fbi-arrests-2-on-c... These are very common. The NYPD and FBI have just now starting busting them up.
    - xtian 3y ago
      [dead]
- User23 3y ago
  Oh it’s definitely racial discrimination against Han Chinese, which is to say “racism.” The question is whether racial discrimination is justified in this case. Many people don’t know this since they think the the USA’s late imperial citizenship model is universal, but the Chinese state claims global jurisdiction over all Chinese persons and they don’t determine who is a Chinese person on the basis of papers issued by foreign governments.
that_guy_iain 3y ago
It’s not based on their race but the politics of their home nation. For it to be racist it would need to be based on their race. You can make decisions that affect a race without it being racist.
I-M-S 3y ago
> it shouldn't be a tiny handful of people running the whole show and that this reality should be obvious to everyone The more experienced I get, the more I'm convinced the "this should(n't) be obvious" part is the main differentiator between the American and the Chinese system

by roenxi 3y ago

naasking 3y ago

What definition of "race" are you using that makes this racism? Chinese students from Canada aren't banned from such research.

roenxi 3y ago
This dude wants to, and I quote the article, "dedicate his career to improving China's underdevelopment of the application of advances to point-of-care technology in the field of public health". He's not being denied that because anyone objects to his aims. The problem seems to be his parents, culture and where his family comes from. Now I'll agree with you that the standard for racism is a bit fuzzy these days, but this is clearly going to meet the bar for being called "racist" when it comes to a university education in North America.
- naasking 3y ago
  > The problem seems to be his parents, culture and where his family comes from. The problem aren't his parents, but the known history of what his government may do to his parents to force him to comply, and yes, the culture that normalized this sort of thing as being ok. You're seriously reaching by calling this racism. Even if "universities" might call it that, that doesn't make the classification sensible or coherent.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Would the government ban: - A Taiwanese student - A Chinese student who grew up in America? - A Chinese student who grew up in Canada? - A Chinese student from a Chinese family that immigrated to Mexico? No? The ethnicities and race are similar for all the above cases. And I don’t think anyone doubts Canada would them in. Showing - race has nothing to do with this equation. Also, in many ways, it is possibly a mercy to the Chinese student himself; because then he won’t be put in a situation where the Chinese government puts his family (quite literally) at gunpoint.
  - cabalamat 3y ago
    If any of the above have relatives in the PRC that could be used as levers to coerce the student into spying for China, then that's reason to be wary.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  His stated aims are irrelevant, as are his parents and culture. The relevant point is that he is a Chinese national who can be recruited or coerced by the Chinese government. These is this entity called the People's Republic of China that is independent of Chinese people culture. That entity is the problem here.

manmtstream 3y ago

It cannot be construed as racism unless these judgements are applied on an ethnic basis, and the arguments put forth are unlikely to be repeated for Taiwanese citizens of similar ethnicity. It’s geopolitics.

tokai 3y ago

Nothing racist about it. China has a global network of shadow secret police stations on universities, controlling and using Chinese studying abroad to spy. Its a documented fact. Would be racist to just deny Chinese students whole sales, but its just prudent to deny cases with obvious connections to Chinese military, intelligence, etc. Also for the protection of our expat Chinese students that are surveilled and can get in a lot of trouble back home if their behavior abroad is deemed subversive.

xtian 3y ago
Where has it been documented? What is the evidence?
- tokai 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic...
- VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2023/04/17/1170571626/fbi-arrests-2-on-charges-tied-to-chinese-outpost-in-new-york-city https://www.npr.org/2023/04/17/1170571626/fbi-arrests-2-on-c... These are very common. The NYPD and FBI have just now starting busting them up.
  - xtian 3y ago
    [dead]
User23 3y ago
Oh it’s definitely racial discrimination against Han Chinese, which is to say “racism.” The question is whether racial discrimination is justified in this case. Many people don’t know this since they think the the USA’s late imperial citizenship model is universal, but the Chinese state claims global jurisdiction over all Chinese persons and they don’t determine who is a Chinese person on the basis of papers issued by foreign governments.

that_guy_iain 3y ago

It’s not based on their race but the politics of their home nation. For it to be racist it would need to be based on their race. You can make decisions that affect a race without it being racist.

I-M-S 3y ago

> it shouldn't be a tiny handful of people running the whole show and that this reality should be obvious to everyone The more experienced I get, the more I'm convinced the "this should(n't) be obvious" part is the main differentiator between the American and the Chinese system