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The tech sector is riddled with such divisions of perspective. ”In a high-level language like C...” - chip designer ”In a low-level language like C...” - appl

The tech sector is riddled with such divisions of perspective. ”In a high-level language like C...” - chip designer ”In a low-level language like C...” - application programmer

graypegg 3y ago
“Riddled” has a tinge of negativity to it. I would say it’s actually a useful thing, “level” is a count of abstraction layers relative to the abstraction you’re familiar with. It’s more just a way to communicate some personal responsibility/knowledge range. I’ve heard people call Python “a low level way of using a computer” or similar.
- inopinatus 3y ago
  Riddles are also explanatory. The best programmer I ever worked with writes drivers for a hobby.
rramadass 3y ago
Anecdote: Coming from the application side i had always thought of C as a low-level language but in one company where i worked with chip designers who only did Verilog, i was gobsmacked when in my conversations with them they said they didn't know higher-level languages like C and cannot program in it.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  We're not gobsmacked when you don't know Verilog, so I'm not sure why you think you can be gobsmacked some chip designers don't know C...
  - rramadass 3y ago
    Because until that point i didn't know much about HDLs like Verilog/VHDL and how they were at a completely different level than "standard" programming languages like C/Python/etc. My then assumption was that since C was a low-level language and chip designers were working at a low-level they would be able to program in Assembly/C in their sleep and that they would be able to initiate me into the mysteries of how my C code was actually translated into electrical signals in the processor circuits. It was a big disappointment for me when i realized we were living in completely different worlds. I actually made a deal with some of them to teach them C/C++ in return for them teaching me Verilog/SystemC but unfortunately that never came to pass. I even got me a couple of Verilog/VHDL books and FPGAs to teach myself what i call "Actual and True Hardware Programming" but haven't really sat down with it. Hopefully sometime in the future so i can finally know everything from the bottom-most layer to the top-most.
    - flashback2199 3y ago
      Ok, I guess that's fair. Having worked at one of the large chip makers, I can tell you there are plenty of people who know C and Verilog, you just weren't talking to any of them. Those who need to do, and those who don't, don't. It's certainly an industry with high degree of specialization.
      - rramadass 3y ago
        So riddle me this; do those who know C & Verilog have a better idea of how the whole C->Assembly->MachineCode->Physical Processor circuitry works? I don't mean the logical model; but how exactly the program bitstream gets transformed into electrical signals by their HDL code.
        flashback2199 3y ago
        No, not usually. In my experience anyway, most random engineers in the semiconductor industry that you would run into who know both C and Verilog would be just using those tools to do their job. There is a lot of ECE stuff to unpack in your question, but the subfield of ECE in question is called VLSI. You'd want to talk to someone who works in VLSI, or did VLSI as their focus in ECE undergrad or grad school.
    - kurthr 3y ago
      They probably used TCL for scripting though... it's bizarrely ubiquitous.

The tech sector is riddled with such divisions of perspective. ”In a high-level language like C...” - chip designer ”In a low-level language like C...” - application programmer

graypegg 3y ago

“Riddled” has a tinge of negativity to it. I would say it’s actually a useful thing, “level” is a count of abstraction layers relative to the abstraction you’re familiar with. It’s more just a way to communicate some personal responsibility/knowledge range. I’ve heard people call Python “a low level way of using a computer” or similar.

inopinatus 3y ago
Riddles are also explanatory. The best programmer I ever worked with writes drivers for a hobby.

rramadass 3y ago

Anecdote: Coming from the application side i had always thought of C as a low-level language but in one company where i worked with chip designers who only did Verilog, i was gobsmacked when in my conversations with them they said they didn't know higher-level languages like C and cannot program in it.

flashback2199 3y ago
We're not gobsmacked when you don't know Verilog, so I'm not sure why you think you can be gobsmacked some chip designers don't know C...
- rramadass 3y ago
  Because until that point i didn't know much about HDLs like Verilog/VHDL and how they were at a completely different level than "standard" programming languages like C/Python/etc. My then assumption was that since C was a low-level language and chip designers were working at a low-level they would be able to program in Assembly/C in their sleep and that they would be able to initiate me into the mysteries of how my C code was actually translated into electrical signals in the processor circuits. It was a big disappointment for me when i realized we were living in completely different worlds. I actually made a deal with some of them to teach them C/C++ in return for them teaching me Verilog/SystemC but unfortunately that never came to pass. I even got me a couple of Verilog/VHDL books and FPGAs to teach myself what i call "Actual and True Hardware Programming" but haven't really sat down with it. Hopefully sometime in the future so i can finally know everything from the bottom-most layer to the top-most.
  - flashback2199 3y ago
    Ok, I guess that's fair. Having worked at one of the large chip makers, I can tell you there are plenty of people who know C and Verilog, you just weren't talking to any of them. Those who need to do, and those who don't, don't. It's certainly an industry with high degree of specialization.
    - rramadass 3y ago
      So riddle me this; do those who know C & Verilog have a better idea of how the whole C->Assembly->MachineCode->Physical Processor circuitry works? I don't mean the logical model; but how exactly the program bitstream gets transformed into electrical signals by their HDL code.
      - flashback2199 3y ago
        No, not usually. In my experience anyway, most random engineers in the semiconductor industry that you would run into who know both C and Verilog would be just using those tools to do their job. There is a lot of ECE stuff to unpack in your question, but the subfield of ECE in question is called VLSI. You'd want to talk to someone who works in VLSI, or did VLSI as their focus in ECE undergrad or grad school.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    They probably used TCL for scripting though... it's bizarrely ubiquitous.