4 ms·

> Strawman. Integration isn't the same thing as diversity, and doesn't automatically follow from it either. Different kinds of people living in the same localit

> Strawman. Integration isn't the same thing as diversity, and doesn't automatically follow from it either. Different kinds of people living in the same locality doesn't mean they form an "integrated society". Almost every large city is a testament to that. The idea that city people are more empathetic and understanding than villagers because they live in a more diverse environment flies in the face of everyday experience. You are calling for empiricism but mixing your arguments with anecdotes and "everyday experience". The empirical argument looks at questions like integrated communities as a form of diversity, and finds that it has socially beneficial consequences -- exactly what kind of diversity are you referring to which is distinguishable from integration? Do elaborate so that we can examine that in an empirical lens. > Appeal to consequences, and thus irrelevant to whether my arguments are correct or not. Not that I accept the ridiculous assertion that my arguments are in any way comparable to the ones you are linking them to. Let me draw the connection for you: do you agree or disagree that your initial line of reasoning would support the conclusion that ethnostates are morally neutral? When this reasoning is placed in a historical context, are you blind to the means by which ethnostates have historically arisen?

pwdisswordfishc 3y ago
> You are calling for empiricism but mixing your arguments with anecdotes and "everyday experience" Well… duh? It would have been distinctly anti-empirical to ignore those.
p-e-w 3y ago
> exactly what kind of diversity are you referring to which is distinguishable from integration? The kind you can find in most cities today. Where your neighbors come from many cultural backgrounds, but you don't even know their names, and they don't know yours. Such societies are diverse statistically, but they are not integrated. In fact, it can reasonably be questioned whether they are "societies" at all. > do you agree or disagree that your initial line of reasoning would support the conclusion that ethnostates are morally neutral? "Ethnostates" are states dominated by a particular ethnic group. Which by definition includes states that are ethnically uniform. According to [1], many states existing today have essentially no ethnic diversity, including Japan, South Korea, Portugal, and Norway. Meanwhile, the most ethnically diverse countries include such luminaries as Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Ivory Coast. In fact, if you look at the accompanying map[2], you will immediately notice a strong inverse correlation between diversity and living standard. Assuming the underlying analysis of diversity level is accurate, this map itself is a condemnation of the entire ideology surrounding diversity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level,_List_based_on_Fearon%27s_analysis.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_countries_ra...
- drewdevault 3y ago
  I question your methodology, but let's take it at face value. >In fact, if you look at the accompanying map[2], you will immediately notice a strong inverse correlation between diversity and living standard. Assuming the underlying analysis of diversity level is accurate, this map itself is a condemnation of the entire ideology surrounding diversity. As a matter of fact, this correlation is much weaker than you portray it to be, and the number of outliers in this hypothesis call it deeply into question. Let's assume GDP (factoring in purchasing power parity) per capita as a proxy for standard of living. Consult this map and compare it to yours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita_in_2023.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_GDP_(... You see many counter-examples to your thesis. Africa tends to have poor correlation between ethnic diversity and standard of living. Look also at East Asia: the more diverse Indonesia and Papua New Guinea are doing better economically than their homogeneous northern neighbor in the Philippines, in this region too is diversity poorly correlated with economic status. Also true of Europe -- just look around the map and you'll find counterexamples everywhere. Look at Switzerland -- it's at once one of the wealthiest and most diverse European countries according to your map. Your example of Japan as an ethnostate is also an interesting case study. I agree that it resembles an ethnostate. However, it's also going through a demographic crisis which is in large part attributable to its status as an ethnostate: an increasingly wealthy and aging ethnically Japanese population is an impending disaster in the face of Japan's historical (and contemporary) strict policies on immigration and integration. Speaking of demographic crisis, compare your map to this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/2017_world_map%2C_median_age_by_country.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/2017_wor... I see some correlations there.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    The standard metric to compare to would probably be the Human Development Index[1]. Which paints roughly, but not quite, the same picture as GDP. But regardless of which development metric you choose, I'm sure you agree that the (inverse) correlation between development and diversity is obvious. Calculating the Spearman coefficient for the two datasets would be an interesting exercise, which I regret I don't have time for at the moment. This leaves four possibilities: 1. High development reduces diversity (very unlikely). 2. High diversity impairs development. 3. High diversity and low development have a common underlying cause. 4. The correlation is coincidental. Even in Africa, the correlation is apparent. The countries bordering the Mediterranean all have low diversity and high development, compared to almost all other African countries. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Human_Development_Index_(2021).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Human_D...

pwdisswordfishc 3y ago

> You are calling for empiricism but mixing your arguments with anecdotes and "everyday experience" Well… duh? It would have been distinctly anti-empirical to ignore those.

p-e-w 3y ago

> exactly what kind of diversity are you referring to which is distinguishable from integration? The kind you can find in most cities today. Where your neighbors come from many cultural backgrounds, but you don't even know their names, and they don't know yours. Such societies are diverse statistically, but they are not integrated. In fact, it can reasonably be questioned whether they are "societies" at all. > do you agree or disagree that your initial line of reasoning would support the conclusion that ethnostates are morally neutral? "Ethnostates" are states dominated by a particular ethnic group. Which by definition includes states that are ethnically uniform. According to [1], many states existing today have essentially no ethnic diversity, including Japan, South Korea, Portugal, and Norway. Meanwhile, the most ethnically diverse countries include such luminaries as Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Ivory Coast. In fact, if you look at the accompanying map[2], you will immediately notice a strong inverse correlation between diversity and living standard. Assuming the underlying analysis of diversity level is accurate, this map itself is a condemnation of the entire ideology surrounding diversity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et... [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level,_List_based_on_Fearon%27s_analysis.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_countries_ra...

drewdevault 3y ago
I question your methodology, but let's take it at face value. >In fact, if you look at the accompanying map[2], you will immediately notice a strong inverse correlation between diversity and living standard. Assuming the underlying analysis of diversity level is accurate, this map itself is a condemnation of the entire ideology surrounding diversity. As a matter of fact, this correlation is much weaker than you portray it to be, and the number of outliers in this hypothesis call it deeply into question. Let's assume GDP (factoring in purchasing power parity) per capita as a proxy for standard of living. Consult this map and compare it to yours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita_in_2023.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_GDP_(... You see many counter-examples to your thesis. Africa tends to have poor correlation between ethnic diversity and standard of living. Look also at East Asia: the more diverse Indonesia and Papua New Guinea are doing better economically than their homogeneous northern neighbor in the Philippines, in this region too is diversity poorly correlated with economic status. Also true of Europe -- just look around the map and you'll find counterexamples everywhere. Look at Switzerland -- it's at once one of the wealthiest and most diverse European countries according to your map. Your example of Japan as an ethnostate is also an interesting case study. I agree that it resembles an ethnostate. However, it's also going through a demographic crisis which is in large part attributable to its status as an ethnostate: an increasingly wealthy and aging ethnically Japanese population is an impending disaster in the face of Japan's historical (and contemporary) strict policies on immigration and integration. Speaking of demographic crisis, compare your map to this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/2017_world_map%2C_median_age_by_country.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/2017_wor... I see some correlations there.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  The standard metric to compare to would probably be the Human Development Index[1]. Which paints roughly, but not quite, the same picture as GDP. But regardless of which development metric you choose, I'm sure you agree that the (inverse) correlation between development and diversity is obvious. Calculating the Spearman coefficient for the two datasets would be an interesting exercise, which I regret I don't have time for at the moment. This leaves four possibilities: 1. High development reduces diversity (very unlikely). 2. High diversity impairs development. 3. High diversity and low development have a common underlying cause. 4. The correlation is coincidental. Even in Africa, the correlation is apparent. The countries bordering the Mediterranean all have low diversity and high development, compared to almost all other African countries. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Human_Development_Index_(2021).svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_by_Human_D...