6 ms·

What choice did the wasp have but to infect and inflict suffering upon the caterpillar? For through that suffering a hundred new wasps are given life, whose pri

What choice did the wasp have but to infect and inflict suffering upon the caterpillar? For through that suffering a hundred new wasps are given life, whose primary goal is to find other caterpillars and continue the cycle. The removal of this form of suffering from the existence of the caterpillar would require the extinction (and associated suffering) of every living member of that species of wasp. How can karma be negative to the wasp that has no choice but to act in the way it does by biological necessity? More generally, how does karma reconcile with any act originating from biology? If every creature on earth decided to inflict absolutely no harm on any other creature, then the only option would be to eliminate all life from the planet. Karma suffers from the problem of evil just as much as western religion.

hypertele-Xii 3y ago
The wasp can choose to start integrating non-caterpillar food sources into its diet, reducing suffering at first while it evolves the necessary digestive system, ultimately minimizing and eliminating suffering. Wasps are somewhat doomed that they haven't made this choice before. The pit gets deeper and deeper the more you dig. The climb will be longer and harder the later you start. If fish can learn to breathe air, walk on land, and care for their young, wasps can learn to not eat caterpillars.
- tumsfestival 3y ago
  You seem to think that evolution is both an intelligent and controllable process. It isn't.
  - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
    It literally is though. Sexual selection, emphasis on selection, is conscious. You choose half the genes of your descendants. Unless there's only one mating option. You also choose where you hang, and what you eat, which drives adaptations to that environment.
    - jddj 3y ago
      You might feel like you have conscious control over the process of acting on your preferences to select the candidate for the randomish splicing of the genes of your partner's parents and your own parents. Did you choose your preferences, though?
      - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
        Yes! I've consciously decided to learn to like many things in life that I used to hate, because they are good for me. I see no reason to assume animals aren't capable of the same. It just takes time.
        secstate 3y ago
        How does this pattern of thought not lead to eugenics?
        hypertele-Xii 3y ago
        "A set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population"? That just describes sexual selection in general. Of course you think with your big head when choosing a mate, not the small one that's easily fooled. You make it sound like choosing good genes for your offspring is evil or something.
- antihipocrat 3y ago
  The wasp hatchlings eat the caterpillar from the inside. The wasp needs the caterpillar as a vessel for its eggs. The wasp has a choice like a tapeworm can choose to exist outside of the gut.. that is, it doesn't have any choice at all.
  - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
    Incorrect. The tapeworm can choose where and how in the gut it exists. It can choose how much it leeches from its host. There are always choices to be made that direct our evolution, for you, me, the wasp, and the tapeworm. Your attitude is fatalistic. You're saying we're all doomed to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors until we die or get lucky. That's a belief. A false one at that.
    - antihipocrat 3y ago
      The tapeworm has no conception that it exists inside a larger creature and that its nutrition is obtained by leeching off its host. The tapeworm has no choice because it has no ability to comprehend the context of its own existence. A lot of human beings find themselves in the same predicament through no fault of their own.
      - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
        That seems so 100% wrong to me. Who are you to say what tapeworms do or don't comprehend? We don't even understand consciousness, yet here you are exclaiming that tapeworms are essentially robots fated to die of extinction. They are not. They are conscious beings in charge of their lives and evolution like any other being is. They might have less brain cells than us, but you don't know what they are thinking.
        MattPalmer1086 3y ago
        Pretty sure they are not contemplating the problem of evil and whether they can make better moral choices. But, you know, who knows, right?
utkarsh858 3y ago
1) You are right wasp, and similar beings dont have much choice, whatever they do they are mistly dictated by nature and they have to act accordingly. That is why there is no karma for them. They cannot create any karma or 'sin' BUT they can suffer the reactions of the bad karma they have done in past life (in a species when they actually had the intelligence to differentiate between right and wrong). A crude example: A man torturing a caterpillar for fun, may have to take birth in a life of caterpillar and endure the same pain, either by a human or different species. Karma does not negate biology, karma is a law which acts on 'subtler' platform than gross law of biology. pleaseure and suffering decided according to law of karma is manifested by biology(through chance and probabilities)! Thanks for such wonderful questions, am open to more.
- antihipocrat 3y ago
  So in the karmic worldview, creatures that have no free agency are karmically neutral? If so, how would the hypothetical soul that is born in the form of a caterpillar (or another lifeform with zero free agency) be able to ever gain karma?
  - utkarsh858 3y ago
    Not karmically neutral. They can not produce new reactions but consume older ones. Once its bad reactions( because of which he had to take a life form with so little consciousness ) are over it can get a new form with more intelligence. Soul never takes a form, it is distinct from matter. Dull matter takes the form. It only 'directs' matter. After old body is destroyed it gets a new body.
    - antihipocrat 3y ago
      I find this interesting, do you have a recommendation for further reading?
      - utkarsh858 3y ago
        There is a monk who likes to explain eastern philosophy in a very wholesome and technical way. Book Reference: 1>. 'Demystifying Reincarnation' https://www.amazon.in/Demystifying-Reincarnation-Chaitanya-Charan/dp/8175994339/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?qid=1704681151&refinements=p_27%3AChaitanya+Charan&s=books&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.in/Demystifying-Reincarnation-Chaitanya-C... 2>. 'Frequently unanswered questions' https://www.amazon.in/Frequently-Unanswered-Questions-Chaitanya-Charan-ebook/dp/B00BS85II2/ref=mp_s_a_1_15?qid=1704680985&refinements=p_27%3AChaitanya+Charan&s=books&sr=1-15 https://www.amazon.in/Frequently-Unanswered-Questions-Chaita... For a way too technical and scientific analysis of eastern philosophy check out 'Atma Paradigm' series(my respect to you if you actually complete that): 3>. https://m.youtube.com/@TheAtmaParadigm/videos https://m.youtube.com/@TheAtmaParadigm/videos High quality articles on various controversial scenarios in terms of karma https://www.thespiritualscientist.com/?s=Karma________ https://www.thespiritualscientist.com/?s=Karma________
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

hypertele-Xii 3y ago

The wasp can choose to start integrating non-caterpillar food sources into its diet, reducing suffering at first while it evolves the necessary digestive system, ultimately minimizing and eliminating suffering. Wasps are somewhat doomed that they haven't made this choice before. The pit gets deeper and deeper the more you dig. The climb will be longer and harder the later you start. If fish can learn to breathe air, walk on land, and care for their young, wasps can learn to not eat caterpillars.

tumsfestival 3y ago
You seem to think that evolution is both an intelligent and controllable process. It isn't.
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  It literally is though. Sexual selection, emphasis on selection, is conscious. You choose half the genes of your descendants. Unless there's only one mating option. You also choose where you hang, and what you eat, which drives adaptations to that environment.
  - jddj 3y ago
    You might feel like you have conscious control over the process of acting on your preferences to select the candidate for the randomish splicing of the genes of your partner's parents and your own parents. Did you choose your preferences, though?
    - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
      Yes! I've consciously decided to learn to like many things in life that I used to hate, because they are good for me. I see no reason to assume animals aren't capable of the same. It just takes time.
      - secstate 3y ago
        How does this pattern of thought not lead to eugenics?
        hypertele-Xii 3y ago
        "A set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population"? That just describes sexual selection in general. Of course you think with your big head when choosing a mate, not the small one that's easily fooled. You make it sound like choosing good genes for your offspring is evil or something.
antihipocrat 3y ago
The wasp hatchlings eat the caterpillar from the inside. The wasp needs the caterpillar as a vessel for its eggs. The wasp has a choice like a tapeworm can choose to exist outside of the gut.. that is, it doesn't have any choice at all.
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  Incorrect. The tapeworm can choose where and how in the gut it exists. It can choose how much it leeches from its host. There are always choices to be made that direct our evolution, for you, me, the wasp, and the tapeworm. Your attitude is fatalistic. You're saying we're all doomed to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors until we die or get lucky. That's a belief. A false one at that.
  - antihipocrat 3y ago
    The tapeworm has no conception that it exists inside a larger creature and that its nutrition is obtained by leeching off its host. The tapeworm has no choice because it has no ability to comprehend the context of its own existence. A lot of human beings find themselves in the same predicament through no fault of their own.
    - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
      That seems so 100% wrong to me. Who are you to say what tapeworms do or don't comprehend? We don't even understand consciousness, yet here you are exclaiming that tapeworms are essentially robots fated to die of extinction. They are not. They are conscious beings in charge of their lives and evolution like any other being is. They might have less brain cells than us, but you don't know what they are thinking.
      - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
        Pretty sure they are not contemplating the problem of evil and whether they can make better moral choices. But, you know, who knows, right?

utkarsh858 3y ago

1) You are right wasp, and similar beings dont have much choice, whatever they do they are mistly dictated by nature and they have to act accordingly. That is why there is no karma for them. They cannot create any karma or 'sin' BUT they can suffer the reactions of the bad karma they have done in past life (in a species when they actually had the intelligence to differentiate between right and wrong). A crude example: A man torturing a caterpillar for fun, may have to take birth in a life of caterpillar and endure the same pain, either by a human or different species. Karma does not negate biology, karma is a law which acts on 'subtler' platform than gross law of biology. pleaseure and suffering decided according to law of karma is manifested by biology(through chance and probabilities)! Thanks for such wonderful questions, am open to more.

antihipocrat 3y ago
So in the karmic worldview, creatures that have no free agency are karmically neutral? If so, how would the hypothetical soul that is born in the form of a caterpillar (or another lifeform with zero free agency) be able to ever gain karma?
- utkarsh858 3y ago
  Not karmically neutral. They can not produce new reactions but consume older ones. Once its bad reactions( because of which he had to take a life form with so little consciousness ) are over it can get a new form with more intelligence. Soul never takes a form, it is distinct from matter. Dull matter takes the form. It only 'directs' matter. After old body is destroyed it gets a new body.
  - antihipocrat 3y ago
    I find this interesting, do you have a recommendation for further reading?
    - utkarsh858 3y ago
      There is a monk who likes to explain eastern philosophy in a very wholesome and technical way. Book Reference: 1>. 'Demystifying Reincarnation' https://www.amazon.in/Demystifying-Reincarnation-Chaitanya-Charan/dp/8175994339/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?qid=1704681151&refinements=p_27%3AChaitanya+Charan&s=books&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.in/Demystifying-Reincarnation-Chaitanya-C... 2>. 'Frequently unanswered questions' https://www.amazon.in/Frequently-Unanswered-Questions-Chaitanya-Charan-ebook/dp/B00BS85II2/ref=mp_s_a_1_15?qid=1704680985&refinements=p_27%3AChaitanya+Charan&s=books&sr=1-15 https://www.amazon.in/Frequently-Unanswered-Questions-Chaita... For a way too technical and scientific analysis of eastern philosophy check out 'Atma Paradigm' series(my respect to you if you actually complete that): 3>. https://m.youtube.com/@TheAtmaParadigm/videos https://m.youtube.com/@TheAtmaParadigm/videos High quality articles on various controversial scenarios in terms of karma https://www.thespiritualscientist.com/?s=Karma________ https://www.thespiritualscientist.com/?s=Karma________

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]