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Executives are personally liable for loss of life, regardless of the law it is morally contemptible to hide behind a corporation. Until people go to jail for ma

Executives are personally liable for loss of life, regardless of the law it is morally contemptible to hide behind a corporation. Until people go to jail for manslaughter this will not change.

nimbius 3y ago
worth noting for no particular reason China had a baby formula scandal in 2008 that led to the death of four infants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal The Intermediate People's Court in Shijiazhuang sentenced a farmer, Zhang Yujun, and a senior manager, Geng Jinping, to death in 2009. five more people received life sentences and the main company behind it went bankrupt. this was for four infant deaths. Boeing killed 189 indonesians in 2021 and executives didnt so much as take a breather at the country club between swings, so good luck. Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  > Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois. Its not a problem of capitalism its a problem of a judicial system having no balls to put execs in prison.
  - nimbius 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal The US had one of these scandals too. nobody was arrested, no one charged. Tammany Hall politician Alderman Michael Tuomey, known as "Butcher Mike", defended the distillers vigorously throughout the scandal—in fact, he was put in charge of the Board of Health investigation. The guy basically ended all investigation and shielded all guilty parties.
    - nyokodo 3y ago
      > The US had one of these scandals too In 1850, we were in the buildup to the civil war and hadn’t even ended slavery, the political and legal environment were drastically different. I’m not suggesting there aren’t lessons to learn but the comparison is ridiculous.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    The problem is called regulatory capture. And it’s by our campaign finance system. And that’s a result of unhindered capital accumulation by a minority.
    - nyokodo 3y ago
      > regulatory capture You don’t need a campaign finance problem to get regulatory capture. Only industry insiders have the context to regulate industries. They come from industry, they know and are known by all the players, and back to industry is where they want options to return. They see the world in terms other insiders do and they don’t want to burn any bridges. This is a recipe for industry getting what they want in most cases.
      - nielsbot 3y ago
        I agree "revolving door" is also a huge problem.
  - virtualritz 3y ago
    > Its not a problem of capitalism its a problem of a judicial system having no balls to put execs in prison. Parent was talking about root cause, not cause. In the US, corporations, through campaign contributions, lobbying, etc. have influence at all levels of governance. In the end this requires money above all. The conclusion that the system (including the judical one) is rigged in favor of such coroporations has "something" to do with capitalism isn't too far fetched. Or for the case at hand: your point would be that the 346 people didn't die because of Boing taking shortcuts for profit; they rather died because their resp. planes fell out of the sky? ;)
  - diob 3y ago
    It's not Capitalism, it's just a result of the judicial system that results from Capitalism. Right?
    - dcow 3y ago
      America is not founded on capitalism and our judicial system is not innately born from it. Not saying capitalism via corporate lobbying and bribes hasn’t had an effect on the notion of justice, but our foundational legal principles exist outside of our nation’s choice of economic policy.
      - diob 3y ago
        No one said it was founded on capitalism. But that is our economic policy, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
        dcow 3y ago
        For the judicial system’s behavior to result from capitalism would imply that our economic policy is baked into our foundational doctrine. I was just pointing out that capitalism did not beget our legal system.
        diob 3y ago
        What do you think capitalism is? Define it, and I think you'll see our foundational doctrine is designed to enshrine and protect the ideas of capitalism. Much more talented and studied folks than I have explored this in depth, which you can find if you google capitalism and it's entanglement with the foundation of the USA.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  I mean, China still has food safety issues to this day, so it's not as if this seems to be working https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China
- kingTug 3y ago
  China executes billionaires with some regularity. Li Jianping got the death penalty last year. There were like a dozen that got it in the aughts from mining corruption. Not to say they are free of corruption but America will never do this.
- yongjik 3y ago
  I'm sure sometimes China's legal system works, but we should also consider frequent cases when it does not, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision (2011) 40 people died in train collision, and then: > On orders from the authorities, the rescue effort concluded less than a day following the accident, and the damaged train cars were seen being broken apart by backhoes and buried nearby. The Railway Ministry justified the burial by claiming that the trains contained valuable "national level" technology that could be stolen. However, hours after the rescuers had been told to stop searching for survivors, a 2-year-old girl was found alive in the wreckage. So, basically, all we know is that Chinese political system is set up to protect powerful people (such as politicians who are overseeing national rail projects). On the other hand, a local milk dealer is expendable, just as he would be in America. The main difference is whether these powerful people are called "bourgeois" or something else.
  - heyoni 3y ago
    Or one of the infants that died drinking the tainted milk belonged to someone powerful.
- breezeTrowel 3y ago
  > Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois. Please read your own link. There were coverups and censorship galore. The problem was this story eventually got so big it could no longer be swept under the rug like so many things were and still are.
- doubloon 3y ago
  this is wrong. China cracked down on milk whistleblowers and severely repressed and harassed them, they stopped anyone from discussing the problem on the internet. Parents of the children who were harmed basically were told to shut up by the government.

Executives are personally liable for loss of life, regardless of the law it is morally contemptible to hide behind a corporation. Until people go to jail for manslaughter this will not change.

nimbius 3y ago

worth noting for no particular reason China had a baby formula scandal in 2008 that led to the death of four infants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal The Intermediate People's Court in Shijiazhuang sentenced a farmer, Zhang Yujun, and a senior manager, Geng Jinping, to death in 2009. five more people received life sentences and the main company behind it went bankrupt. this was for four infant deaths. Boeing killed 189 indonesians in 2021 and executives didnt so much as take a breather at the country club between swings, so good luck. Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois.

ekianjo 3y ago
> Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois. Its not a problem of capitalism its a problem of a judicial system having no balls to put execs in prison.
- nimbius 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swill_milk_scandal The US had one of these scandals too. nobody was arrested, no one charged. Tammany Hall politician Alderman Michael Tuomey, known as "Butcher Mike", defended the distillers vigorously throughout the scandal—in fact, he was put in charge of the Board of Health investigation. The guy basically ended all investigation and shielded all guilty parties.
  - nyokodo 3y ago
    > The US had one of these scandals too In 1850, we were in the buildup to the civil war and hadn’t even ended slavery, the political and legal environment were drastically different. I’m not suggesting there aren’t lessons to learn but the comparison is ridiculous.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  The problem is called regulatory capture. And it’s by our campaign finance system. And that’s a result of unhindered capital accumulation by a minority.
  - nyokodo 3y ago
    > regulatory capture You don’t need a campaign finance problem to get regulatory capture. Only industry insiders have the context to regulate industries. They come from industry, they know and are known by all the players, and back to industry is where they want options to return. They see the world in terms other insiders do and they don’t want to burn any bridges. This is a recipe for industry getting what they want in most cases.
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      I agree "revolving door" is also a huge problem.
- virtualritz 3y ago
  > Its not a problem of capitalism its a problem of a judicial system having no balls to put execs in prison. Parent was talking about root cause, not cause. In the US, corporations, through campaign contributions, lobbying, etc. have influence at all levels of governance. In the end this requires money above all. The conclusion that the system (including the judical one) is rigged in favor of such coroporations has "something" to do with capitalism isn't too far fetched. Or for the case at hand: your point would be that the 346 people didn't die because of Boing taking shortcuts for profit; they rather died because their resp. planes fell out of the sky? ;)
- diob 3y ago
  It's not Capitalism, it's just a result of the judicial system that results from Capitalism. Right?
  - dcow 3y ago
    America is not founded on capitalism and our judicial system is not innately born from it. Not saying capitalism via corporate lobbying and bribes hasn’t had an effect on the notion of justice, but our foundational legal principles exist outside of our nation’s choice of economic policy.
    - diob 3y ago
      No one said it was founded on capitalism. But that is our economic policy, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
      - dcow 3y ago
        For the judicial system’s behavior to result from capitalism would imply that our economic policy is baked into our foundational doctrine. I was just pointing out that capitalism did not beget our legal system.
        diob 3y ago
        What do you think capitalism is? Define it, and I think you'll see our foundational doctrine is designed to enshrine and protect the ideas of capitalism. Much more talented and studied folks than I have explored this in depth, which you can find if you google capitalism and it's entanglement with the foundation of the USA.
bobthepanda 3y ago
I mean, China still has food safety issues to this day, so it's not as if this seems to be working https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety_incidents_in_China
kingTug 3y ago
China executes billionaires with some regularity. Li Jianping got the death penalty last year. There were like a dozen that got it in the aughts from mining corruption. Not to say they are free of corruption but America will never do this.
yongjik 3y ago
I'm sure sometimes China's legal system works, but we should also consider frequent cases when it does not, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision (2011) 40 people died in train collision, and then: > On orders from the authorities, the rescue effort concluded less than a day following the accident, and the damaged train cars were seen being broken apart by backhoes and buried nearby. The Railway Ministry justified the burial by claiming that the trains contained valuable "national level" technology that could be stolen. However, hours after the rescuers had been told to stop searching for survivors, a 2-year-old girl was found alive in the wreckage. So, basically, all we know is that Chinese political system is set up to protect powerful people (such as politicians who are overseeing national rail projects). On the other hand, a local milk dealer is expendable, just as he would be in America. The main difference is whether these powerful people are called "bourgeois" or something else.
- heyoni 3y ago
  Or one of the infants that died drinking the tainted milk belonged to someone powerful.
breezeTrowel 3y ago
> Capitalism just isnt set up to punish the Bourgeois. Please read your own link. There were coverups and censorship galore. The problem was this story eventually got so big it could no longer be swept under the rug like so many things were and still are.
doubloon 3y ago
this is wrong. China cracked down on milk whistleblowers and severely repressed and harassed them, they stopped anyone from discussing the problem on the internet. Parents of the children who were harmed basically were told to shut up by the government.