5 ms·

Web0 Manifesto

22 points by Gedxx 3y ago

dash2 3y ago
They're the small web, and it seems to be a very small manifesto. What exactly am I supposed to be signing in support of?
- rchaud 3y ago
  Signing would get your site added to the list. People want to distribute their website without relying on corporate-dominated SEO.
  - dash2 3y ago
    Your alternative to google is a list of websites?
lloydatkinson 3y ago
Literally dozens maybe more of those links are all dead.
fsflover 3y ago
[flagged]
- striking 3y ago
  I would be unsurprised if these folks are just making a point of being tired of having decentralization being conflated with capital by way of blockchains. Some apps don't need them, lots of people tried to shoehorn them in anyway, and a lot of potential and effort was squandered in the name of making money. That being said, if that really is their take, I wish they'd say so.
- palata 3y ago
  I like Schneier's opinion on blockchain: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_and_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_an... Essentially saying that the only valid use for blockchain is cryptocurrencies (and then you have to decide if you want cryptocurrencies or not).
- simonw 3y ago
  At a guess: we have all been watching blockchain stuff evolve for 15 years at this point, we understand exactly how it works and what it does and we don't like it.
- badgersnake 3y ago
  This is a “corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit” forum not a true hacker space. However, also blockchain is a platform for cryptocurrencies with no other use cases. Cryptocurrencies are mostly scams, bubbles and criminality. In essence you are wrong about this forum and about blockchain.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Being "mostly scams" doesn't make cryptocurrencies useless. Otherwise you may also say the same about cash, Tor, darknet, emails and many other things.
superkuh 3y ago
web 1.0 was extremely decentralized. And now that everyone has fast connections everyone can easily host web 1.0 sites by installing nginx and putting html and files in directories and forwarding port 80 from their router. It's extremely low risk, no maintaince, low resource usage, and completely distributed. And it's okay if you shut down your computer and the webserver for days or weeks. Being up all the time is only a commercial requirement. I think a real 'web0' like they're talking would be re-implementing Opera's good idea of integrating a working webserver that started up when you started your browser. Opera operated as a proxy for those hosted websites but that need not be the case.
- clwg 3y ago
  I like it, but I'd probably put that on 443 with TLS. The threat model and attacks developed since web 1.0 have increased in complexity and sophistication and better to be safe than sorry.
  - superkuh 3y ago
    As an option that's fine but it brings in a big dependency stack and lots of moving parts. acme2 might not look like it from the user end but internally there's a lot that's going on those acme programs are hiding. HTTP+HTTPS assures a site doesn't die just because of a cert renewal or CA problem (like LE's root cert expiring a couple years back, the switch from acme 1 to acme 2, your particular acme client having a dep that breaks on update, etc). While commercial and institutional sites do have to operate with a different security model these days, human people not involved in monetary exchange or private information have the same requirements as ever. HTTPS is optional. A nice add-on but not vital. And definitely not HTTPS only if you want your site to last more than a few years without active manual mantainance.
    - clwg 3y ago
      You could also self sign - It's going to be grating for users, but your still afforded the protections against any hop on the path.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
stolenmerch 3y ago
"web0 is web3 without all the corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit." So, building normal small websites like we've always done? I'm honestly struggling to see what's going on here other than a couple of devs blowing off political steam. The Kitten project [0] looks cool, but it's basically any small client-side stack unless I'm missing a really crucial piece. [0] https://codeberg.org/kitten/app https://codeberg.org/kitten/app
airstrike 3y ago
> web0 is the decentralised web. As opposed to which "centralized" web? Also why is the website called small-web.org and not decentralized-web.org? Decentralized and small are two different things...
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  Gotta worry about the url being typeable.
- koollman 3y ago
  I guess the kind of web centralized on google/amazon/azure/facebook, and a few others (cloudflare comes to mind)
- majewsky 3y ago
  The kind of web that Cory Doctorow describes as "five websites each containing screenshots of the other four".
rchaud 3y ago
These personal website directories are starting to pile up. Not a bad thing, but is there anything about this that couldn't be described as "personal website havers"?
- lloydatkinson 3y ago
  What are some of those directories? I know exactly what you mean but (perhaps because it isn’t in Google’s interest) I can’t actually find any by searching for “small web directories” or other indie web terms.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    Search for: - Kagi Small Web - ooh.directory - RSS Club to name a few.
fxd123 3y ago
> corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit What the hell does that even refer to
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  You’ll know it when I see it.
- badgersnake 3y ago
  Have you not read the techno-optimist manifesto?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lgas 3y ago
  Obviously in this context it refers to "blockchain, NFTS, metaverse".
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
(2022) More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29767375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29767375

22 points by Gedxx 3y ago

They're the small web, and it seems to be a very small manifesto. What exactly am I supposed to be signing in support of?

rchaud 3y ago
Signing would get your site added to the list. People want to distribute their website without relying on corporate-dominated SEO.
- dash2 3y ago
  Your alternative to google is a list of websites?

lloydatkinson 3y ago

Literally dozens maybe more of those links are all dead.

fsflover 3y ago

[flagged]

striking 3y ago
I would be unsurprised if these folks are just making a point of being tired of having decentralization being conflated with capital by way of blockchains. Some apps don't need them, lots of people tried to shoehorn them in anyway, and a lot of potential and effort was squandered in the name of making money. That being said, if that really is their take, I wish they'd say so.
palata 3y ago
I like Schneier's opinion on blockchain: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_and_.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_an... Essentially saying that the only valid use for blockchain is cryptocurrencies (and then you have to decide if you want cryptocurrencies or not).
simonw 3y ago
At a guess: we have all been watching blockchain stuff evolve for 15 years at this point, we understand exactly how it works and what it does and we don't like it.
badgersnake 3y ago
This is a “corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit” forum not a true hacker space. However, also blockchain is a platform for cryptocurrencies with no other use cases. Cryptocurrencies are mostly scams, bubbles and criminality. In essence you are wrong about this forum and about blockchain.
- fsflover 3y ago
  Being "mostly scams" doesn't make cryptocurrencies useless. Otherwise you may also say the same about cash, Tor, darknet, emails and many other things.

superkuh 3y ago

web 1.0 was extremely decentralized. And now that everyone has fast connections everyone can easily host web 1.0 sites by installing nginx and putting html and files in directories and forwarding port 80 from their router. It's extremely low risk, no maintaince, low resource usage, and completely distributed. And it's okay if you shut down your computer and the webserver for days or weeks. Being up all the time is only a commercial requirement. I think a real 'web0' like they're talking would be re-implementing Opera's good idea of integrating a working webserver that started up when you started your browser. Opera operated as a proxy for those hosted websites but that need not be the case.

clwg 3y ago
I like it, but I'd probably put that on 443 with TLS. The threat model and attacks developed since web 1.0 have increased in complexity and sophistication and better to be safe than sorry.
- superkuh 3y ago
  As an option that's fine but it brings in a big dependency stack and lots of moving parts. acme2 might not look like it from the user end but internally there's a lot that's going on those acme programs are hiding. HTTP+HTTPS assures a site doesn't die just because of a cert renewal or CA problem (like LE's root cert expiring a couple years back, the switch from acme 1 to acme 2, your particular acme client having a dep that breaks on update, etc). While commercial and institutional sites do have to operate with a different security model these days, human people not involved in monetary exchange or private information have the same requirements as ever. HTTPS is optional. A nice add-on but not vital. And definitely not HTTPS only if you want your site to last more than a few years without active manual mantainance.
  - clwg 3y ago
    You could also self sign - It's going to be grating for users, but your still afforded the protections against any hop on the path.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

stolenmerch 3y ago

"web0 is web3 without all the corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit." So, building normal small websites like we've always done? I'm honestly struggling to see what's going on here other than a couple of devs blowing off political steam. The Kitten project [0] looks cool, but it's basically any small client-side stack unless I'm missing a really crucial piece. [0] https://codeberg.org/kitten/app https://codeberg.org/kitten/app

airstrike 3y ago

> web0 is the decentralised web. As opposed to which "centralized" web? Also why is the website called small-web.org and not decentralized-web.org? Decentralized and small are two different things...

Waterluvian 3y ago
Gotta worry about the url being typeable.
koollman 3y ago
I guess the kind of web centralized on google/amazon/azure/facebook, and a few others (cloudflare comes to mind)
majewsky 3y ago
The kind of web that Cory Doctorow describes as "five websites each containing screenshots of the other four".

rchaud 3y ago

These personal website directories are starting to pile up. Not a bad thing, but is there anything about this that couldn't be described as "personal website havers"?

lloydatkinson 3y ago
What are some of those directories? I know exactly what you mean but (perhaps because it isn’t in Google’s interest) I can’t actually find any by searching for “small web directories” or other indie web terms.
- rchaud 3y ago
  Search for: - Kagi Small Web - ooh.directory - RSS Club to name a few.

fxd123 3y ago

> corporate right-libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit What the hell does that even refer to

Waterluvian 3y ago
You’ll know it when I see it.
badgersnake 3y ago
Have you not read the techno-optimist manifesto?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lgas 3y ago
Obviously in this context it refers to "blockchain, NFTS, metaverse".

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

(2022) More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29767375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29767375