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> "It seems like bulk of their work is based on computer models" Then it seems that you are confused. Climate science is about gathering data, putting forth a

by roc 15y ago

> "It seems like bulk of their work is based on computer models" Then it seems that you are confused. Climate science is about gathering data, putting forth a testable hypothesis and seeing how future data fits the prediction. Yes, they use computer models. In the same way that you or I might gather data from a wind tunnel test and make a computer model of wind flow from that data to extrapolate a theory and create new testable hypotheses of a more-aerodynamic shape. But so long as new data is used to test those hypotheses, the use of a computer model is irrelevant. Science is being done. Testable hypotheses are being created and new data is being compared to those predictions. As long as we aren't running around half-cocked, believing the predictions of hypotheses that have not yet been tested, there's no concern. And the core hypotheses under the umbrella of Climate science have been tested. Some disproved by data, leading to changes in thinking, further research and new testable theories. Some supported by data. None of the 'alternate' hypotheses can say the same. (No, it's not the solar cycle. No, it's not distorted temperature readings from data stations in urban areas.) The very reason that there is a general consensus around the so called 'tent-pole' theories in Climate Science is precisely because they have been tested and have been shown to make accurate predictions and continue to do so. Some of them, for decades now.

stfu 15y ago
Somehow I find that thought uncomfortable that the complexity of factors impacting something as complex as climate is getting reduced to a wind tunnel test. One is a highly controlled scenario where all(most all) the externalities can be controlled. The other some extremely complex modeling, which will, at least in my view, always depend on some consensus among the participants which factors are more important than others. I am far from a climate change skeptic, but the best example for the fundamental failure of grasping complex scenario with some factor-based prediction systems has been demonstrated with the complete failure of economics in predicting something as "simple" as the financial crisis. But then again, I am coming from a social science perspective assuming that as soon as humans are involved data and data analysis will always be subjective.
- trevelyan 15y ago
  You are not "far from a climate change skeptic". You are a climate change skeptic. At best, your post is the vague claim that complex systems cannot be modeled or tested empirically, and is empirically wrong in its claim that no-one predicted the financial crisis.
  - ThomBot 15y ago
    Based on the second claim of stfu’s post, “as soon as humans are involved data and data analysis will always be subjective”, I think he is really trying to highlight the unpredictability of a model that must generalize human choices using statistics. Since even conservative scientists will agree that climate change has some anthropogenic dimension, we should understand the limitations of modeling it. Being skeptical of the model, however, does not prohibit you from accepting what the model is suggesting. Historical data and scientific opinion can be enough to convince us that climate change is occurring. But no model can predict how our reaction to that knowledge will affect climate change in the future.
  - Produce 15y ago
    Call me a skeptic too in that case. Chaotic systems are inherently unpredictable to us, though they are ofcourse deterministic. The climate is chaotic (http://www.mendeley.com/research/nonlinearities-feedbacks-and-critical-thresholds-within-the-earths-climate-system/ http://www.mendeley.com/research/nonlinearities-feedbacks-an...). Chaotic systems have a horizon of predictability (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/media/3227/Sensitivity-of-a-chaotic-number-sequence-to-initial-value-illustrating http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/media/3227/Sensitivity-o...), so climate models are still useful to an extent. They will tell us, with some degree of accuracy, roughly what will happen in the near future. The long term remains a mystery and there's little that can be done about that.
    - scarmig 15y ago
      It goes much too far to say that the climate is chaotic and therefore totally unpredictable in the long run. After all, if you buy that whole hog, you're also led to say that if you moved the Earth to Mercury's orbit it would be impossible to predict that the Earth would get hotter, in the long term. This results from the flaw of confusing weather (which is indeed chaotic) with statistics about weather (i.e. climate). A butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane. But it can also prevent a hurricane. All those perturbations don't change the fact that, within an order of magnitude, we can predict how many hurricanes will occur in a given year. Alternatively, think about the classical three body problem: even though it's the preeminent example of a chaotic system, you can still make broad predictions about it. Center of mass, average speed of the bodies, average collision time. This isn't some obscure controversial field, either: in physics, these emergent statistical properties form the basis of statistical mechanics and therefore thermodynamics as a whole. Chaos doesn't mean you have to throw your hands up and give up on making any long term predictions at all about a system.

by roc 15y ago

stfu 15y ago

Somehow I find that thought uncomfortable that the complexity of factors impacting something as complex as climate is getting reduced to a wind tunnel test. One is a highly controlled scenario where all(most all) the externalities can be controlled. The other some extremely complex modeling, which will, at least in my view, always depend on some consensus among the participants which factors are more important than others. I am far from a climate change skeptic, but the best example for the fundamental failure of grasping complex scenario with some factor-based prediction systems has been demonstrated with the complete failure of economics in predicting something as "simple" as the financial crisis. But then again, I am coming from a social science perspective assuming that as soon as humans are involved data and data analysis will always be subjective.

trevelyan 15y ago
You are not "far from a climate change skeptic". You are a climate change skeptic. At best, your post is the vague claim that complex systems cannot be modeled or tested empirically, and is empirically wrong in its claim that no-one predicted the financial crisis.
- ThomBot 15y ago
  Based on the second claim of stfu’s post, “as soon as humans are involved data and data analysis will always be subjective”, I think he is really trying to highlight the unpredictability of a model that must generalize human choices using statistics. Since even conservative scientists will agree that climate change has some anthropogenic dimension, we should understand the limitations of modeling it. Being skeptical of the model, however, does not prohibit you from accepting what the model is suggesting. Historical data and scientific opinion can be enough to convince us that climate change is occurring. But no model can predict how our reaction to that knowledge will affect climate change in the future.
- Produce 15y ago
  Call me a skeptic too in that case. Chaotic systems are inherently unpredictable to us, though they are ofcourse deterministic. The climate is chaotic (http://www.mendeley.com/research/nonlinearities-feedbacks-and-critical-thresholds-within-the-earths-climate-system/ http://www.mendeley.com/research/nonlinearities-feedbacks-an...). Chaotic systems have a horizon of predictability (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/media/3227/Sensitivity-of-a-chaotic-number-sequence-to-initial-value-illustrating http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/media/3227/Sensitivity-o...), so climate models are still useful to an extent. They will tell us, with some degree of accuracy, roughly what will happen in the near future. The long term remains a mystery and there's little that can be done about that.
  - scarmig 15y ago
    It goes much too far to say that the climate is chaotic and therefore totally unpredictable in the long run. After all, if you buy that whole hog, you're also led to say that if you moved the Earth to Mercury's orbit it would be impossible to predict that the Earth would get hotter, in the long term. This results from the flaw of confusing weather (which is indeed chaotic) with statistics about weather (i.e. climate). A butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane. But it can also prevent a hurricane. All those perturbations don't change the fact that, within an order of magnitude, we can predict how many hurricanes will occur in a given year. Alternatively, think about the classical three body problem: even though it's the preeminent example of a chaotic system, you can still make broad predictions about it. Center of mass, average speed of the bodies, average collision time. This isn't some obscure controversial field, either: in physics, these emergent statistical properties form the basis of statistical mechanics and therefore thermodynamics as a whole. Chaos doesn't mean you have to throw your hands up and give up on making any long term predictions at all about a system.