6 ms·

> STEM devalued non-STEM studies for years What does this refer to?

by dnissley 3y ago

tempodox 3y ago
History, for instance, is not part of STEM.
- robotresearcher 3y ago
  Have you heard of Newton, Pascal, Maxwell, Leibniz, Pythagoras, Einstein, Aristotle, Curie, and Turing? Do you know what they did and a little about their lives? They were likely all dead before you were born. Do you know some things about the Manhattan Project, Bell Labs, Bletchley Park, the Apollo Project, the Gutenberg press, the invention of carbon steel? That’s history.
  - ryanklee 3y ago
    He is referencing the field of History, not history.
    - robotresearcher 3y ago
      I do not understand the distinction. I’ll go further. If I said ‘he was referencing Science, not science’ would that make any sense? I was a CS professor for a long time. Like many of my STEM colleagues, I taught the history of the ideas in my discipline as an intrinsic and important part of the curriculum. It’s also good pedagogy, since the long process of getting closer to the truth or developing more powerful technology is part of the toolbox we are trying to impart.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - ryanklee 3y ago
        The commenter's point is that History as an academic discipline organized by institutions is part of the humanities departments. It's not a deeper point. Of course science has its own history and that history is examined (sometimes) in the course of scientific education. That's not what's at issue. What's at issue is that History as a subject and other Humanities disciplines are systematically devalued in STEM disciplines and by scientific cultural mouthpieces and participants in STEM endeavors.
Avicebron 3y ago
I think it in general refers to a (seeming) lack of awareness/acknowledgement of non-stem topics like philosophy, theology, ethics, history, etc. I'm not sure I would phrase it as STEM itself devaluing non-stem (I mean it's an acronym for subjects) but, rather society in general devaluing these, example, how hard is it go out, get a philosophy degree, and practice/write that and live comfortably with that occupation (no external sources of income). History/Literature seems to be much the same
- ryanklee 3y ago
  This is not correct. This attitude was nurtured by science's most successful public mouthpieces. Stephen Hawking and Neal Degrasse Tyson have been running around for decades telling everyone that the humanities are worthless. Young students, unfortunately, listened to them on this subject. A real tragedy, I think. Carl Sagan would have been a much better steward for science today, as he had a very healthy respect for the relationship between science and humanities and the latter's value for understanding our world. This dangerous rift goes back even further. See C.P. Snow's lecture "The Two Cultures".(1) EDIT: Not sure how this slipped my mind, but Sean Carroll is exactly the kind of representative of the syncretic relationship between sciences and humanities that ought to be the default, rather than the exception. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures
  - kbenson 3y ago
    Has NDT been saying that? I wouldn't know, since I mostly consume him as small segments of larger appearances, but it seems half the time he's conversing with someone he's spouting philosophy as he sees it, so it would be surprising to me that he denigrates it.
    - ryanklee 3y ago
      1. Tyson dismissed the intellectual value of philosophy in a podcast, which led to criticism from those within the discipline[1]. 2. He has been quoted saying, "What they teach in the humanities is not 'skepticism' or 'critical thinking.' It's mental masturbation disguised as critical thinking"[5]. 3. Tyson warned that philosophy "can really mess you up" and has implied that philosophy does not progress in the way science does[5]. 4. His attitude towards philosophy has been characterized as science-defeating by some, as it dismisses the role of philosophy in addressing moral and aesthetic questions that science cannot answer[6]. 5. Tyson's comments have sparked discussions and defenses of the humanities and philosophy, with critics arguing that his views are overly simplistic and do not represent the true value and diversity of philosophical inquiry[1][4][5][6]. [1] Neil DeGrasse Tyson is Wrong about Philosophy https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2014/05/13/neil-degrasse-tyson-is-wrong-about-philosophy/ https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2014/05/13/neil-degrasse-tyso... [2] An Open Letter to Neil deGrasse Tyson https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2521di/an_open_letter_to_neil_degrasse_tyson/?rdt=56588 https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2521di/an_open_... [3] Neil deGrasse Tyson and the Value of Philosophy https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-value-of-philosophy_b_5330216 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-v... [4] Why Does Neil deGrasse Tyson Hate Philosophy? https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2014/05/22/why_does_neil_degrasse_tyson_hate_philosophy.html https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2014/05/22/why_doe... [5] Please Save Me from Neil DeGrasse Tyson https://humanitiescenter.byu.edu/please-save-me-from-neil-degrasse-tyson/ https://humanitiescenter.byu.edu/please-save-me-from-neil-de... [6] Neil deGrasse Tyson and the value of philosophy - 3 Quarks Daily https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2014/05/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-value-of-philosophy.html https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2014/05/neil-degrasse-... [7] Neil deGrasse Tyson’s Scientism and the Scapegoating of Philosophy http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com/2014/05/neil-degrasse-tysons-scientism-and.html http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com/2014/05/neil-deg... [8] Maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson Should Embrace The Humanities More https://terribleminds.com/ramble/2018/03/06/maybe-neil-degrasse-tyson-should-embrace-the-humanities-more/ https://terribleminds.com/ramble/2018/03/06/maybe-neil-degra... [9] Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins on how philosophy has ... https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2554xu/neil_degrasse_tyson_and_richard_dawkins_on_how/ https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2554xu/neil_deg... [10] 225 thoughts on “Physicists Should Stop Saying Silly Things about Philosophy” https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/23/physicists-should-stop-saying-silly-things-about-philosophy/ https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/23/physici... [11] Neil deGrasse Tyson is wrong to dismiss all of philosophy, but he may have a point on some of it https://selfawarepatterns.com/2014/05/14/more-thoughts-on-neil-degrasse-tysons-attitude-toward-philosophy/ https://selfawarepatterns.com/2014/05/14/more-thoughts-on-ne... [12] Neil deGrasse Tyson and Philosophy: The Voice and Never-Was of Science Insults the Foundation of All Intellectual Thought https://milliern.com/2014/05/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-philosophy-the-voice-and-never-was-of-science-insults-the-foundation-of-all-intellectual-thought/ https://milliern.com/2014/05/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-phil...
karaterobot 3y ago
Figuratively, how all my physicist and computer science friends rolled their eyes when I took degrees in the humanities. Literally, how true the joke is about the difference between an English major and a large pepperoni pizza is that the pizza can feed a family of three. On the other hand, the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct.
- dimal 3y ago
  > On the other hand, the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct. Bwahh! Sick burn.
- ryanklee 3y ago
  > the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct. The humanities is not a monolith. If you ask a philosopher in the analytic tradition, which is the tradition in which most of the philosophical world resides, they are likely to disagree with social constructivist views.
  - murderfs 3y ago
    And if you ask a philosopher in the continental tradition, you're likely to get 1000 words of self-contradictory jargon that sounds deep, but means absolutely nothing. You don't get to point at Neil deGrasse Tyson, and sweep, for example, Zizek under the rug. The Sokal affair was not some sort of isolated aberration, the truth is that enormous chunks of the humanities are worthless.
bmitc 3y ago
It refers to the word STEM, what the acronym stands for, and what it does not contain. Many of the smartest people I have met, including some of the best programmers, have had non-STEM backgrounds. The push by the STEM industry has pushed universities to be STEM industry preparation and training centers. This, among other things, has greatly devalued non-STEM education. And even within STEM, there are subdisciplines that been devalued. It's a shame, because many of the non-STEM disciplines that have been devalued are effectively systems disciplines that help train for understanding complex relationships and the effects of time and other effects on these relationships. So we are also devaluing those skills in favor of short-term STEM thinking.

> STEM devalued non-STEM studies for years What does this refer to?

tempodox 3y ago

History, for instance, is not part of STEM.

robotresearcher 3y ago
Have you heard of Newton, Pascal, Maxwell, Leibniz, Pythagoras, Einstein, Aristotle, Curie, and Turing? Do you know what they did and a little about their lives? They were likely all dead before you were born. Do you know some things about the Manhattan Project, Bell Labs, Bletchley Park, the Apollo Project, the Gutenberg press, the invention of carbon steel? That’s history.
- ryanklee 3y ago
  He is referencing the field of History, not history.
  - robotresearcher 3y ago
    I do not understand the distinction. I’ll go further. If I said ‘he was referencing Science, not science’ would that make any sense? I was a CS professor for a long time. Like many of my STEM colleagues, I taught the history of the ideas in my discipline as an intrinsic and important part of the curriculum. It’s also good pedagogy, since the long process of getting closer to the truth or developing more powerful technology is part of the toolbox we are trying to impart.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ryanklee 3y ago
      The commenter's point is that History as an academic discipline organized by institutions is part of the humanities departments. It's not a deeper point. Of course science has its own history and that history is examined (sometimes) in the course of scientific education. That's not what's at issue. What's at issue is that History as a subject and other Humanities disciplines are systematically devalued in STEM disciplines and by scientific cultural mouthpieces and participants in STEM endeavors.

Avicebron 3y ago

I think it in general refers to a (seeming) lack of awareness/acknowledgement of non-stem topics like philosophy, theology, ethics, history, etc. I'm not sure I would phrase it as STEM itself devaluing non-stem (I mean it's an acronym for subjects) but, rather society in general devaluing these, example, how hard is it go out, get a philosophy degree, and practice/write that and live comfortably with that occupation (no external sources of income). History/Literature seems to be much the same

ryanklee 3y ago
This is not correct. This attitude was nurtured by science's most successful public mouthpieces. Stephen Hawking and Neal Degrasse Tyson have been running around for decades telling everyone that the humanities are worthless. Young students, unfortunately, listened to them on this subject. A real tragedy, I think. Carl Sagan would have been a much better steward for science today, as he had a very healthy respect for the relationship between science and humanities and the latter's value for understanding our world. This dangerous rift goes back even further. See C.P. Snow's lecture "The Two Cultures".(1) EDIT: Not sure how this slipped my mind, but Sean Carroll is exactly the kind of representative of the syncretic relationship between sciences and humanities that ought to be the default, rather than the exception. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures
- kbenson 3y ago
  Has NDT been saying that? I wouldn't know, since I mostly consume him as small segments of larger appearances, but it seems half the time he's conversing with someone he's spouting philosophy as he sees it, so it would be surprising to me that he denigrates it.
  - ryanklee 3y ago
    1. Tyson dismissed the intellectual value of philosophy in a podcast, which led to criticism from those within the discipline[1]. 2. He has been quoted saying, "What they teach in the humanities is not 'skepticism' or 'critical thinking.' It's mental masturbation disguised as critical thinking"[5]. 3. Tyson warned that philosophy "can really mess you up" and has implied that philosophy does not progress in the way science does[5]. 4. His attitude towards philosophy has been characterized as science-defeating by some, as it dismisses the role of philosophy in addressing moral and aesthetic questions that science cannot answer[6]. 5. Tyson's comments have sparked discussions and defenses of the humanities and philosophy, with critics arguing that his views are overly simplistic and do not represent the true value and diversity of philosophical inquiry[1][4][5][6]. [1] Neil DeGrasse Tyson is Wrong about Philosophy https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2014/05/13/neil-degrasse-tyson-is-wrong-about-philosophy/ https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2014/05/13/neil-degrasse-tyso... [2] An Open Letter to Neil deGrasse Tyson https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2521di/an_open_letter_to_neil_degrasse_tyson/?rdt=56588 https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2521di/an_open_... [3] Neil deGrasse Tyson and the Value of Philosophy https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-value-of-philosophy_b_5330216 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-v... [4] Why Does Neil deGrasse Tyson Hate Philosophy? https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2014/05/22/why_does_neil_degrasse_tyson_hate_philosophy.html https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2014/05/22/why_doe... [5] Please Save Me from Neil DeGrasse Tyson https://humanitiescenter.byu.edu/please-save-me-from-neil-degrasse-tyson/ https://humanitiescenter.byu.edu/please-save-me-from-neil-de... [6] Neil deGrasse Tyson and the value of philosophy - 3 Quarks Daily https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2014/05/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-value-of-philosophy.html https://3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2014/05/neil-degrasse-... [7] Neil deGrasse Tyson’s Scientism and the Scapegoating of Philosophy http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com/2014/05/neil-degrasse-tysons-scientism-and.html http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com/2014/05/neil-deg... [8] Maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson Should Embrace The Humanities More https://terribleminds.com/ramble/2018/03/06/maybe-neil-degrasse-tyson-should-embrace-the-humanities-more/ https://terribleminds.com/ramble/2018/03/06/maybe-neil-degra... [9] Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins on how philosophy has ... https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2554xu/neil_degrasse_tyson_and_richard_dawkins_on_how/ https://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/2554xu/neil_deg... [10] 225 thoughts on “Physicists Should Stop Saying Silly Things about Philosophy” https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/23/physicists-should-stop-saying-silly-things-about-philosophy/ https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/23/physici... [11] Neil deGrasse Tyson is wrong to dismiss all of philosophy, but he may have a point on some of it https://selfawarepatterns.com/2014/05/14/more-thoughts-on-neil-degrasse-tysons-attitude-toward-philosophy/ https://selfawarepatterns.com/2014/05/14/more-thoughts-on-ne... [12] Neil deGrasse Tyson and Philosophy: The Voice and Never-Was of Science Insults the Foundation of All Intellectual Thought https://milliern.com/2014/05/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-philosophy-the-voice-and-never-was-of-science-insults-the-foundation-of-all-intellectual-thought/ https://milliern.com/2014/05/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-phil...

karaterobot 3y ago

Figuratively, how all my physicist and computer science friends rolled their eyes when I took degrees in the humanities. Literally, how true the joke is about the difference between an English major and a large pepperoni pizza is that the pizza can feed a family of three. On the other hand, the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct.

dimal 3y ago
> On the other hand, the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct. Bwahh! Sick burn.
ryanklee 3y ago
> the humanities did plenty to devalue itself, by adopting the view that 'value' itself is likely a social construct. The humanities is not a monolith. If you ask a philosopher in the analytic tradition, which is the tradition in which most of the philosophical world resides, they are likely to disagree with social constructivist views.
- murderfs 3y ago
  And if you ask a philosopher in the continental tradition, you're likely to get 1000 words of self-contradictory jargon that sounds deep, but means absolutely nothing. You don't get to point at Neil deGrasse Tyson, and sweep, for example, Zizek under the rug. The Sokal affair was not some sort of isolated aberration, the truth is that enormous chunks of the humanities are worthless.

bmitc 3y ago

It refers to the word STEM, what the acronym stands for, and what it does not contain. Many of the smartest people I have met, including some of the best programmers, have had non-STEM backgrounds. The push by the STEM industry has pushed universities to be STEM industry preparation and training centers. This, among other things, has greatly devalued non-STEM education. And even within STEM, there are subdisciplines that been devalued. It's a shame, because many of the non-STEM disciplines that have been devalued are effectively systems disciplines that help train for understanding complex relationships and the effects of time and other effects on these relationships. So we are also devaluing those skills in favor of short-term STEM thinking.