3 ms·

Perhaps for some things, but, for example, holidays far away are a choice, buying a large house is a choice, buying lots of clothes is a choice.

kiba 3y ago
Perhaps for some things, but, for example, holidays far away are a choice, buying a large house is a choice, buying lots of clothes is a choice. Buying a large house is a 'choice' in the sense that much of middle housing is illegal and that political structures aren't designed to maximize the efficient use of land. There's a reason why Georgism is in vogue these days. buying lots of clothes is a choice. Ah, yes. Powered by a system that is designed to exploit brains for profit. It's like eating junk food is a choice. Or not exercising is a 'choice'. They are useless excuses that justify the status quo rather than empowering us to do something about it.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Wait, are you arguing that eating junk food and not exercising aren't really choices? I hope I'm just misreading sarcasm there, but they are very much choices and that itself should be empowering because people can just as easily make a different choice.
  - kiba 3y ago
    I hope I'm just misreading sarcasm there, but they are very much choices and that itself should be empowering because people can just as easily make a different choice. If choice is so easy, anyone can pick up a textbook about mathematics, barring deficiency in cognitive capacity, become knowledgeable about mathematics. That doesn't happen not because people are stupid, but because the task is genuinely hard. If choice is so easy, you would be able to able to choose to not to eat for three days and achieve that. For some people, it is extremely difficult. For others, that is easy. I have experienced both situations. Real freedom, then, is to understand that your own mind has their own cause and effect and how to manipulate that to achieve 'freedom of choice', and the corresponding training to be able to do so. To have whole societies exercising, then, is to understand the causal factors involved and the knobs needed to achieve that, and the organizational capacity to do so. That is why to say that you 'have a choice' to not exercise or exercise is a defeatist attitude and to consign whole group of people to early death. What people need is not 'choices' but solutions to achieve those choices. I myself continue to struggle. I have lost weight and then regained. There are time in which I can exercise for hours. There are times in which I achieved physical fitness that I at time I never thought I could. I will keep trying, but clearly I do not yet have mastery of my own mind.
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      > If choice is so easy, anyone can pick up a textbook about mathematics, barring deficiency in cognitive capacity, become knowledgeable about mathematics. That doesn't happen not because people are stupid, but because the task is genuinely hard. You're conflating choice with a much more complex situation that raises questions of how people learn, how skills relate to nature versus nurture, and personal interest and motivations. I'm not arguing that avoiding junk food or choosing to exercise are easy, only that they are choices. Its really interesting to me that you take the view of choice as defeatist while I see the exact opposite, that the view of a lack of choice is defeatist. We both clearly have considered this in the past and feel strongly about our view, great reminder that people can seriously and genuinely consider the same situation and land on exactly opposite positions.
      - kiba 3y ago
        You can't make difficult choices you want unless you understand and trained to manipulate your own mind. A society can't become healthier, even if they are willing, unless they understood the steps they need to take to become healthier. Choice are meaningless if you can't do them, which is why they are traps.
        _heimdall 3y ago
        I'm not really sure how you even describe those as choices, or why you think people are destined to eat junk food. There are absolutely situations where economics or geographic limitations leave some with little choice beyond junk food. Beyond that, eating junk food is a choice. The beauty of choice is that we are offered the freedom to make it. Maybe you never want to eat junk food, or only occasionally, or maybe you really enjoy it and prefer to live on a junk food diet. Its a choice, and one that can be made today and changed tomorrow. Viewing things like exercise and diet as a non choice is insanely dis-empowering. I want to know that I can choose to change if its important to me, I don't want to feel powerless to genetics or the society in which I was born.
        deleted 3y ago
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Middle housing is illegal? Where is that or rather what is that then? If you want to believe that humans are just misled in a way that is fine, but you might find that some of your ideas about the status quo turn out to be wrong or at least that the status quo has few thousand years in it you need to overcome.
  - kiba 3y ago
    Middle housing is illegal? Where is that or rather what is that then? Middle housing is a type of housing density that sits somewhere between high rises and single family housing. Vox media has a good article on it.[1] but you might find that some of your ideas about the status quo turn out to be wrong or at least that the status quo has few thousand years in it you need to overcome. Modern status quo is vastly different to how urban planning was done in the past. Maybe they have a good reason, or maybe not, or maybe they were a good idea for a time but became obsolete. 1. https://www.vox.com/videos/2021/8/17/22628750/how-the-us-made-affordable-homes-illegal https://www.vox.com/videos/2021/8/17/22628750/how-the-us-mad...
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Not sure how much of an issue that is outside of the US. For sure urban planning has changed all a lot in the last 2000 years, but I actually meant more human desires around "luxuries".

kiba 3y ago

Perhaps for some things, but, for example, holidays far away are a choice, buying a large house is a choice, buying lots of clothes is a choice. Buying a large house is a 'choice' in the sense that much of middle housing is illegal and that political structures aren't designed to maximize the efficient use of land. There's a reason why Georgism is in vogue these days. buying lots of clothes is a choice. Ah, yes. Powered by a system that is designed to exploit brains for profit. It's like eating junk food is a choice. Or not exercising is a 'choice'. They are useless excuses that justify the status quo rather than empowering us to do something about it.

_heimdall 3y ago
Wait, are you arguing that eating junk food and not exercising aren't really choices? I hope I'm just misreading sarcasm there, but they are very much choices and that itself should be empowering because people can just as easily make a different choice.
- kiba 3y ago
  I hope I'm just misreading sarcasm there, but they are very much choices and that itself should be empowering because people can just as easily make a different choice. If choice is so easy, anyone can pick up a textbook about mathematics, barring deficiency in cognitive capacity, become knowledgeable about mathematics. That doesn't happen not because people are stupid, but because the task is genuinely hard. If choice is so easy, you would be able to able to choose to not to eat for three days and achieve that. For some people, it is extremely difficult. For others, that is easy. I have experienced both situations. Real freedom, then, is to understand that your own mind has their own cause and effect and how to manipulate that to achieve 'freedom of choice', and the corresponding training to be able to do so. To have whole societies exercising, then, is to understand the causal factors involved and the knobs needed to achieve that, and the organizational capacity to do so. That is why to say that you 'have a choice' to not exercise or exercise is a defeatist attitude and to consign whole group of people to early death. What people need is not 'choices' but solutions to achieve those choices. I myself continue to struggle. I have lost weight and then regained. There are time in which I can exercise for hours. There are times in which I achieved physical fitness that I at time I never thought I could. I will keep trying, but clearly I do not yet have mastery of my own mind.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    > If choice is so easy, anyone can pick up a textbook about mathematics, barring deficiency in cognitive capacity, become knowledgeable about mathematics. That doesn't happen not because people are stupid, but because the task is genuinely hard. You're conflating choice with a much more complex situation that raises questions of how people learn, how skills relate to nature versus nurture, and personal interest and motivations. I'm not arguing that avoiding junk food or choosing to exercise are easy, only that they are choices. Its really interesting to me that you take the view of choice as defeatist while I see the exact opposite, that the view of a lack of choice is defeatist. We both clearly have considered this in the past and feel strongly about our view, great reminder that people can seriously and genuinely consider the same situation and land on exactly opposite positions.
    - kiba 3y ago
      You can't make difficult choices you want unless you understand and trained to manipulate your own mind. A society can't become healthier, even if they are willing, unless they understood the steps they need to take to become healthier. Choice are meaningless if you can't do them, which is why they are traps.
      - _heimdall 3y ago
        I'm not really sure how you even describe those as choices, or why you think people are destined to eat junk food. There are absolutely situations where economics or geographic limitations leave some with little choice beyond junk food. Beyond that, eating junk food is a choice. The beauty of choice is that we are offered the freedom to make it. Maybe you never want to eat junk food, or only occasionally, or maybe you really enjoy it and prefer to live on a junk food diet. Its a choice, and one that can be made today and changed tomorrow. Viewing things like exercise and diet as a non choice is insanely dis-empowering. I want to know that I can choose to change if its important to me, I don't want to feel powerless to genetics or the society in which I was born.
        deleted 3y ago
RandomLensman 3y ago
Middle housing is illegal? Where is that or rather what is that then? If you want to believe that humans are just misled in a way that is fine, but you might find that some of your ideas about the status quo turn out to be wrong or at least that the status quo has few thousand years in it you need to overcome.
- kiba 3y ago
  Middle housing is illegal? Where is that or rather what is that then? Middle housing is a type of housing density that sits somewhere between high rises and single family housing. Vox media has a good article on it.[1] but you might find that some of your ideas about the status quo turn out to be wrong or at least that the status quo has few thousand years in it you need to overcome. Modern status quo is vastly different to how urban planning was done in the past. Maybe they have a good reason, or maybe not, or maybe they were a good idea for a time but became obsolete. 1. https://www.vox.com/videos/2021/8/17/22628750/how-the-us-made-affordable-homes-illegal https://www.vox.com/videos/2021/8/17/22628750/how-the-us-mad...
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Not sure how much of an issue that is outside of the US. For sure urban planning has changed all a lot in the last 2000 years, but I actually meant more human desires around "luxuries".