5 ms·

Diesel-Electric Conversion Kits for Old Pickups

35 points by cf100clunk 3y ago

cf100clunk 3y ago
Previously submitted video link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985741
marcus0x62 3y ago
> The kit will "ideally" retail for one-third to half the price of a new diesel truck while providing estimated savings of 30% on fuel. I don't think there are any new 3/4 or 1 ton diesel trucks that can be had for less than $60k. So, $20 - $30k for this kit, under "ideal" circumstances. A nice 12V[0] Cummins rebuild can be had for $10k, plus figure another $2,500 to install. So, your engine blows up and you decide you want to either replace it with one of these kits for $30k or a get a nice rebuild for say $13k. Over the life of a light duty diesel engine (which to continue with our 12V Cummins example might be 750k - 1m miles,) @ 15 MPG, 30% fuel savings amounts to around 20,000 gallons of diesel fuel, which at $5/gallon is a $100,000 savings. If you believe these kits will be as reliable and long-lasting as a diesel engine, they might make good enough economic sense to increase the...not large... number of diesel pickup owners looking to go electric. 0 - A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L 12 valve diesel engine made by Cummins. They were used in Ram 2500/3500 pickup trucks between 1989 and 1998, and along with the Ford 7.3L Power Stroke would be a potentially popular target for the kit discussed in the article.
- matrix_overload 3y ago
  The biggest trouble is that a lithium battery that will last 8 years, and the one that will puff up in a year and lose 80% of capacity, all look the same when you buy them. It's all about the purity of materials, quality control, and other things you don't see without a microscope. Big players like Ford play it very safe with their own cell manufacturers, but a random smaller-scale startup might be forced to buy the cells from the lowest bidder on Aliexpress, and that won't fare well.
  - marcus0x62 3y ago
    No doubt. The last sentence in my post is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
  - abe_m 3y ago
    The guys making this kit are working to launch a full diesel/electric hybrid transport truck for heavy haul applications. They plan to use cells from the same supplier as they are going to use for the heavy trucks, and hope to increase volume on their purchases.
  - happycube 3y ago
    They're using LFP batteries here which generally don't puff up and go foom.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    > a lithium battery that will last 8 years All of the 2010 Toyota Hybrids on original battery packs would like a word.
- triyambakam 3y ago
  Can you share more about the 12V Cummins rebuild? How does that work?
  - marcus0x62 3y ago
    Sorry, I should have clarified. A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L Cummins Diesel engine with 12 valves (one intake and one exhaust valve for each of the 6 cylinders.) It is a popular (and reliable) diesel engine used in older Dodge Ram pickup trucks.
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    It’s depends on the specific engine, but you essentially tear it down then replace or machine parts back to high quality. For example, cylinders and walls may develop too much gap over the years. You can machine the walls out a bit then slide a sleeve in to get it back to original sizes. Lots of manual work, but cheaper than a new engine. You might also replace a bunch of other components along the way. The key thing is the engine block is generally still sound, even if other parts have warm out a bit.
- argiopetech 3y ago
  Don't forget to factor in the price of selling the 12V and drive train. This said, I considered the potential of this kit for me, a '98 12V owner, and don't consider it worth the money.
LgWoodenBadger 3y ago
I thought this would be similar to the diesel-electric term with respect to trains. Which is also something I’m shocked isn’t (hasn’t?) been tried with semis. Get rid of the 18 speed transmissions, have a “max efficiency” mode for regular use, and a “max power” mode for hill climbing.
- starbase 3y ago
  agreed. diesel-electric powertrain has a specific meaning, and this ain't it. this is a diesel hybrid
  - Turskarama 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure it IS actually diesel electric, the engine is only used as a generator with no direct connection to the wheels. It's a full time battery-electric drive with a range extender.
- theossuary 3y ago
  Yeah I did some research on this a while ago because I had the same thought, diesel/electric drive-train seems like a no-brainer for trucks, and maybe even other vehicles. Basically a generator in an electric drive-train, with the possibility of introducing batteries too. Sadly the main drawback seems to be cost; as is evident in the pricing of the startup's product. More than that, until gasoline vehicle externalities are properly priced in, the cost of any alternative will be exorbitant in comparison. There have been some concept vehicles, and larger commercial vehicles; but they never caught on. It seems like electric will win before diesel/electric has a real chance. I always thought it'd make the most sense on motor homes and the like, where people tend to bring a small generator for electric appliances anyway. https://wikicars.org/en/Diesel-Electric_Hybrid https://wikicars.org/en/Diesel-Electric_Hybrid
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Electric cannot win in semi applications for the foreseeable future. We'd need many more terawatts of power in the to supply their needs.
starbase 3y ago
having driven my share of old pickups, the frames aren't going to be up to the task of carrying any significant load with this kit installed. Might be fine for tooling around town with your girlfriend, but that's about it. IMO it would make more sense to sell the kits as a complete rolling chassis, with a brand new F250 frame, and let coachbuilders slap on whatever body they want.
more_corn 3y ago
Don’t you love it when you’re reading an article and you’re engaged and interested. And then they pop up something “not the article” in your face, breaking your flow? I fucking love that. It makes me want to hug them in the face with my balled up fists or maybe something sharp. Why have we decided that the way to delight our audience is to annoy the fuck out of them? Let’s all take a moment to reflect on where we went so wrong since I can’t recommend that you click the link and try to read the article.
elintknower 3y ago
These kits are awesome, but these vehicles are quite literally death traps. Once the gasoline engine in my VW starts to kick, I'm very tempted to do a hybrid compressed natural gas upgrade. Potentially down the line a full electric upgrade since I'll still have a manual transmission.

35 points by cf100clunk 3y ago

Previously submitted video link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985741

marcus0x62 3y ago

> The kit will "ideally" retail for one-third to half the price of a new diesel truck while providing estimated savings of 30% on fuel. I don't think there are any new 3/4 or 1 ton diesel trucks that can be had for less than $60k. So, $20 - $30k for this kit, under "ideal" circumstances. A nice 12V[0] Cummins rebuild can be had for $10k, plus figure another $2,500 to install. So, your engine blows up and you decide you want to either replace it with one of these kits for $30k or a get a nice rebuild for say $13k. Over the life of a light duty diesel engine (which to continue with our 12V Cummins example might be 750k - 1m miles,) @ 15 MPG, 30% fuel savings amounts to around 20,000 gallons of diesel fuel, which at $5/gallon is a $100,000 savings. If you believe these kits will be as reliable and long-lasting as a diesel engine, they might make good enough economic sense to increase the...not large... number of diesel pickup owners looking to go electric. 0 - A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L 12 valve diesel engine made by Cummins. They were used in Ram 2500/3500 pickup trucks between 1989 and 1998, and along with the Ford 7.3L Power Stroke would be a potentially popular target for the kit discussed in the article.

matrix_overload 3y ago
The biggest trouble is that a lithium battery that will last 8 years, and the one that will puff up in a year and lose 80% of capacity, all look the same when you buy them. It's all about the purity of materials, quality control, and other things you don't see without a microscope. Big players like Ford play it very safe with their own cell manufacturers, but a random smaller-scale startup might be forced to buy the cells from the lowest bidder on Aliexpress, and that won't fare well.
- marcus0x62 3y ago
  No doubt. The last sentence in my post is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
- abe_m 3y ago
  The guys making this kit are working to launch a full diesel/electric hybrid transport truck for heavy haul applications. They plan to use cells from the same supplier as they are going to use for the heavy trucks, and hope to increase volume on their purchases.
- happycube 3y ago
  They're using LFP batteries here which generally don't puff up and go foom.
- DANmode 3y ago
  > a lithium battery that will last 8 years All of the 2010 Toyota Hybrids on original battery packs would like a word.
triyambakam 3y ago
Can you share more about the 12V Cummins rebuild? How does that work?
- marcus0x62 3y ago
  Sorry, I should have clarified. A "12V Cummins" is a 5.9L Cummins Diesel engine with 12 valves (one intake and one exhaust valve for each of the 6 cylinders.) It is a popular (and reliable) diesel engine used in older Dodge Ram pickup trucks.
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  It’s depends on the specific engine, but you essentially tear it down then replace or machine parts back to high quality. For example, cylinders and walls may develop too much gap over the years. You can machine the walls out a bit then slide a sleeve in to get it back to original sizes. Lots of manual work, but cheaper than a new engine. You might also replace a bunch of other components along the way. The key thing is the engine block is generally still sound, even if other parts have warm out a bit.
argiopetech 3y ago
Don't forget to factor in the price of selling the 12V and drive train. This said, I considered the potential of this kit for me, a '98 12V owner, and don't consider it worth the money.

LgWoodenBadger 3y ago

I thought this would be similar to the diesel-electric term with respect to trains. Which is also something I’m shocked isn’t (hasn’t?) been tried with semis. Get rid of the 18 speed transmissions, have a “max efficiency” mode for regular use, and a “max power” mode for hill climbing.

starbase 3y ago
agreed. diesel-electric powertrain has a specific meaning, and this ain't it. this is a diesel hybrid
- Turskarama 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure it IS actually diesel electric, the engine is only used as a generator with no direct connection to the wheels. It's a full time battery-electric drive with a range extender.
theossuary 3y ago
Yeah I did some research on this a while ago because I had the same thought, diesel/electric drive-train seems like a no-brainer for trucks, and maybe even other vehicles. Basically a generator in an electric drive-train, with the possibility of introducing batteries too. Sadly the main drawback seems to be cost; as is evident in the pricing of the startup's product. More than that, until gasoline vehicle externalities are properly priced in, the cost of any alternative will be exorbitant in comparison. There have been some concept vehicles, and larger commercial vehicles; but they never caught on. It seems like electric will win before diesel/electric has a real chance. I always thought it'd make the most sense on motor homes and the like, where people tend to bring a small generator for electric appliances anyway. https://wikicars.org/en/Diesel-Electric_Hybrid https://wikicars.org/en/Diesel-Electric_Hybrid
- pixl97 3y ago
  Electric cannot win in semi applications for the foreseeable future. We'd need many more terawatts of power in the to supply their needs.

starbase 3y ago

having driven my share of old pickups, the frames aren't going to be up to the task of carrying any significant load with this kit installed. Might be fine for tooling around town with your girlfriend, but that's about it. IMO it would make more sense to sell the kits as a complete rolling chassis, with a brand new F250 frame, and let coachbuilders slap on whatever body they want.

more_corn 3y ago

Don’t you love it when you’re reading an article and you’re engaged and interested. And then they pop up something “not the article” in your face, breaking your flow? I fucking love that. It makes me want to hug them in the face with my balled up fists or maybe something sharp. Why have we decided that the way to delight our audience is to annoy the fuck out of them? Let’s all take a moment to reflect on where we went so wrong since I can’t recommend that you click the link and try to read the article.

elintknower 3y ago

These kits are awesome, but these vehicles are quite literally death traps. Once the gasoline engine in my VW starts to kick, I'm very tempted to do a hybrid compressed natural gas upgrade. Potentially down the line a full electric upgrade since I'll still have a manual transmission.