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>> Also, pretty sure that goes against the 1st amendment I'm pretty sure it does not. Tesla is not the government and Musk is not, yet, president. There is pre

>> Also, pretty sure that goes against the 1st amendment I'm pretty sure it does not. Tesla is not the government and Musk is not, yet, president. There is precious little in the US constitution governing employer-employee relations. In fact, by not allowing such agreements, any government arguably violates the contracts clause. The US constitution frees people, which includes granting them freedom to sign stupid contracts.

hprotagonist 3y ago
> Musk is not, yet, president will never be.
- votepaunchy 3y ago
  And why not? Congress can choose to discard electors from states excluding candidates (as may happen next year). “In the 19th century, several state legislatures elected senators in their late twenties despite the Constitutional minimum age of 30, such as Henry Clay, who was sworn into office at age 29, and John Henry Eaton, the youngest U.S. senator in history, who took his oath of office when he was 28 years, 4 months and 29 days old.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_members_of_the_United_States_Congress https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_members_of_...
  - phalangion 3y ago
    Because you must be a natural-born citizen of the US.
    - diggan 3y ago
      As far as I understand, there isn't really a consensus on what "natural-born citizen" actually means in the context of the US constitution. I'm sure some huge team of lawyers could argue that Musk somehow is "natural-born citizen".
      - hprotagonist 3y ago
        There are some edge cases like “your parents are american but you were born on vacation in france”, but this one is about as crystal clear as you can get: elon was born in SA to a mother who was born in CA to canadian parents and a father who was born in SA to south african parents. He is a naturalized citizen of the US, and ineligible to stand for election for the presidency.
        diggan 3y ago
        Yeah, which sounds like a fair guess, but the only way to know for sure is for it to be tested in courts, otherwise we're just guessing :) And as we probably all know, having large pockets for lawyers and lobbyists, makes a lot of what we think isn't possible, possible. It's really not as crystal clear as you make it.
        BWStearns 3y ago
        ... other than "person x has never been and is not presently a citizen" this is as clear as it can get. Naturalized citizens are not eligible to be president, there is no gray space on this matter.
      - brewdad 3y ago
        Well, today, he is a citizen. Presumably, he was natural-born and not fabricated in a laboratory. Does that make him a natural born citizen? /s I hope.
    - bigstrat2003 3y ago
      Technically that can be amended, so it's still possible. I agree it's ridiculously unlikely though.
vba616 3y ago
If nobody ever negotiates the terms of a pre-fabricated contract, then there is no freedom of contract going on, as a matter of common sense. Have you ever been part of a corporate re-org where you were technically laid off and rehired and thus were legally forced to sign a new agreement? Such freedom! All "contracts" that fit a pattern of take-it-or-leave-it with a zillion provisions should be negotiated by the government, a union, or some other collective entity with a reasonable claim to protecting the interests of the side that has no leverage alone. Plenty of agreements are heavily constrained by regulators, (think insurance for example) and we take it for granted, so I am not suggesting any radical idea, just pushing back on the weasels who are always working at corrupting things.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  To continue on the concept of illusory freedom: > "I should not agree with your young friends," said Marcus curtly, "I am so old-fashioned as to believe in free contract." > "I, being older, perhaps believe in it even more," answered M. Louis smiling. "But surely it is a very old principle of law that a leonine contract is not a free contract. And it is hypocrisy to pretend that a bargain between a starving man and a man with all the food is anything but a leonine contract." > He glanced up at the fire-escape, a ladder leading up to the balcony of a very high attic above. "I live in that garret; or rather on that balcony. If I fell off the balcony and hung on a spike, so far from the steps that somebody with a ladder could offer to rescue me if I gave him a hundred million francs, I should be quite morally justified in using his ladder and then telling him to go to hell for his hundred million. Hell, indeed, is not out of the picture; for it is a sin of injustice to force an advantage against the desperate [...]" -- The Paradoxes of Mr Pond (1937) by G.K. Chesterton http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks05/0500421.txt http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks05/0500421.txt

hprotagonist 3y ago

> Musk is not, yet, president will never be.

votepaunchy 3y ago
And why not? Congress can choose to discard electors from states excluding candidates (as may happen next year). “In the 19th century, several state legislatures elected senators in their late twenties despite the Constitutional minimum age of 30, such as Henry Clay, who was sworn into office at age 29, and John Henry Eaton, the youngest U.S. senator in history, who took his oath of office when he was 28 years, 4 months and 29 days old.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_members_of_the_United_States_Congress https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_members_of_...
- phalangion 3y ago
  Because you must be a natural-born citizen of the US.
  - diggan 3y ago
    As far as I understand, there isn't really a consensus on what "natural-born citizen" actually means in the context of the US constitution. I'm sure some huge team of lawyers could argue that Musk somehow is "natural-born citizen".
    - hprotagonist 3y ago
      There are some edge cases like “your parents are american but you were born on vacation in france”, but this one is about as crystal clear as you can get: elon was born in SA to a mother who was born in CA to canadian parents and a father who was born in SA to south african parents. He is a naturalized citizen of the US, and ineligible to stand for election for the presidency.
      - diggan 3y ago
        Yeah, which sounds like a fair guess, but the only way to know for sure is for it to be tested in courts, otherwise we're just guessing :) And as we probably all know, having large pockets for lawyers and lobbyists, makes a lot of what we think isn't possible, possible. It's really not as crystal clear as you make it.
        BWStearns 3y ago
        ... other than "person x has never been and is not presently a citizen" this is as clear as it can get. Naturalized citizens are not eligible to be president, there is no gray space on this matter.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      Well, today, he is a citizen. Presumably, he was natural-born and not fabricated in a laboratory. Does that make him a natural born citizen? /s I hope.
  - bigstrat2003 3y ago
    Technically that can be amended, so it's still possible. I agree it's ridiculously unlikely though.

vba616 3y ago

If nobody ever negotiates the terms of a pre-fabricated contract, then there is no freedom of contract going on, as a matter of common sense. Have you ever been part of a corporate re-org where you were technically laid off and rehired and thus were legally forced to sign a new agreement? Such freedom! All "contracts" that fit a pattern of take-it-or-leave-it with a zillion provisions should be negotiated by the government, a union, or some other collective entity with a reasonable claim to protecting the interests of the side that has no leverage alone. Plenty of agreements are heavily constrained by regulators, (think insurance for example) and we take it for granted, so I am not suggesting any radical idea, just pushing back on the weasels who are always working at corrupting things.

Terr_ 3y ago
To continue on the concept of illusory freedom: > "I should not agree with your young friends," said Marcus curtly, "I am so old-fashioned as to believe in free contract." > "I, being older, perhaps believe in it even more," answered M. Louis smiling. "But surely it is a very old principle of law that a leonine contract is not a free contract. And it is hypocrisy to pretend that a bargain between a starving man and a man with all the food is anything but a leonine contract." > He glanced up at the fire-escape, a ladder leading up to the balcony of a very high attic above. "I live in that garret; or rather on that balcony. If I fell off the balcony and hung on a spike, so far from the steps that somebody with a ladder could offer to rescue me if I gave him a hundred million francs, I should be quite morally justified in using his ladder and then telling him to go to hell for his hundred million. Hell, indeed, is not out of the picture; for it is a sin of injustice to force an advantage against the desperate [...]" -- The Paradoxes of Mr Pond (1937) by G.K. Chesterton http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks05/0500421.txt http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks05/0500421.txt