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I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. >and with the recent news that will be the end of GIMP c

by danssig 14y ago

I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. >and with the recent news that will be the end of GIMP complaints What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. If you're playing with cat pictures then GIMP is probably ok, but if you're a professional who's livelihood depends on your photo editing software GIMP just doesn't cut it. >or OpenOffice/LibreOffice incompatibility Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. >Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. Linux having clunky but functional copies of everything Windows has doesn't mean everyone is going to switch. It just means the small percentage of people who do want to switch are finally to the point where Mac OSX was years ago. >I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? I'm the only person I talk to on a regular basis who has linux at all and I would never consider using it as a primary desktop. I switched to Mac so I could get all the command line goodness, first/second class citizen status for the development tools I want to use and ease of administration. Linux is the most powerful of the main three OSes but it also requires the most administration if you're doing much with it. And finally, you're making a bizarre assumption that all that's holding back "the year of the Linux desktop" is games. Do you actually know why Mac OSX finally started gaining market share? It was because Mac is the only place you can develop apps for the App store. What do I have to have linux for? Nothing. >Really, there are many people who want to use Linux but hold out because of games. Yes. Many as in hundreds, maybe thousands...

b0rsuk 14y ago
>I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. No, you are not sorry. It's one of those phrases that, like "good game" has evolved to function as an insult. It's a flammable material warning sign. >What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. They are going to port the rest at the Google Summer of Code. >Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. Then I wish you more luck. Multiple people in my family use Linux regularly. Even a distant 60ish relative decided to stick with Linux just for the heck of it. He bought a laptop that had Linux installed and he had already heard good things about it. He's an entrepreneur, not a businessman - not "running my company", but "always looking for something profitable or something to learn". Perhaps that's that's the difference - Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. > (Gaming) Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. I'll grant you that Windows 7 has been a success. As for comparisons to OSX, I dare to say Linux users are more... passionate, not to mention nerdy. This would explain why I mostly see requests for Linux ports of games, and OSX users are nowhere as vocal. Different appeal, I guess. Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. My guess would be "style", fashion, words like "gorgeous" and "just works" pop to mind. My unfounded speculation is that OSX devices are more common among people who just want their computer to get out of the way. Less excitable people play less games... Long story short - I believe Linux users are more interested in games. >Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? Because it works both ways. Linux has numerous features other systems only acquired recently or still don't have. Convenient package management, and a culture of it. Linux devs are accustomed to packaging applications. There are all sorts of magic you can do with booting from USB or other media. Frowned upon when you perceive your software as intellectual property. Ridiculous customization options. It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro, and I can't blame them because people have different needs. That's why it's misguided to try to come up with the ultimate Linux distro. It's like trying to come up with the best (non-programming) language. And culture matters. I moved from Ubuntu to Debian because I feel more comfortable with these people. By default, they tell me not only how to do X but why, and I love it. I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. For my taste, Ubuntu has too much "Guy X wrote this script and we all run it without questioning".
- danssig 14y ago
  >No, you are not sorry. Actually I meant "I'm sorry" to the forum since the sentence was a bit direct. >The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. Well, that's interesting. They continue to chase and that's good but Photoshop isn't staying still. By the time they get moved over to GEGL Photoshop will probably be on CS6 which is a whole new, improved interface. Adobe already has deblurring working in the labs (wouldn't expect it before a CS6.5 though). >Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. No, I think the difference is: the people I spend most of my time with aren't conservative but they're busy. They need a computer to just work and not require reading online, touching config files, etc. The computer should be as invisible as possible. Even today, that still makes Linux a no-go. >Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. Well, I'm a software developer and am pretty comfortable with unix administration but I got a mac (switched from Windows) because I just don't have time for mess with the computer. Between my job, commute and family there is no time to work on problems I don't care about (e.g. getting the wireless driver to work). >Convenient package management, and a culture of it. This is the main advantage Linux has over other platforms at the moment, but Steam has nothing to do with that. >It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro I personally think this has hurt Linux desktop adoption and keeps it mostly with an audience who is willing to spend time on such things (i.e. never the mainstream). > I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. I run Debian on my servers since I trust their test cycle more, like their installer and hate RPM (I recently tried Fedora again but it would have taken me more time to remove all the packages I didn't want than to just install Debian).
  - ekianjo 14y ago
    > They continue to chase and that's good but Photoshop isn't staying still. By the time they get moved over to GEGL Photoshop will probably be on CS6 which is a whole new, improved interface. So what? GIMP is still an extremely powerful tool. I used to be a Photoshop proponent but once you realize how GIMP can easily be extended and tweaked it's a fantastic program. Its interface is not that horrible, by the way. First, it's better to use keyboard shortcuts for several tools, and second it's not because it's different from Photoshop it's necessarily bad. You need to work in a different way using GIMP, but you can get results just as good.
b0rsuk 14y ago
I forgot one important point. >Linux is the most powerful of the main three OSes but it also requires the most administration if you're doing much with it. Too many weasel words to reply with certainty, but I like this one: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/29/munich_linux_savings/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/29/munich_linux_savings... Munich's mayor claims €4m savings from Linux switch Lower costs and fewer support calls than Windows
- seanp2k2 14y ago
  Point: there isn't much malware for Linux (and the virus scanners for it scan for /windows viruses/), and there is no easy dtrace/strace/lsof for Windows (afaik...sysinternals tools aside kinda.) If all you really need is a web browser, mail client, IM client/Skype, a PDF reader, and libreOffice (try it before you knock it)...Linux is great for non-techies in office environments, and can be locked down very easily.
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    * dtrace/strace/lsof for Windows (afaik...sysinternals tools aside kinda.)* StraceNT Point: there isn't much malware for Linux Windows 7 is probably more secure than vanilla Linux. iptables comes with no default configuration or configuration utility. POSIX.1e ACLs are less flexible than Windows ACEs. Desktop Linux isn't targeted very often, but Linux servers are targeted and exploited all the time.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      True, if desktop Linux where to become mainstream you can expect many rogue PPAs containing malware as well as existing trusted repos becoming huge juicy attack targets.
gillianseed 14y ago
I agree with you somewhat. I'm a fulltime Linux user and also working as a programmer, for me Linux is the perfect system as it gives me full control and is, IMO, superior to Windows as a developing platform which is what I mainly use it for, although I also dabble alot with graphics in various forms using Blender,Gimp,Inkscape and Mypaint. Anyway, for me Linux just fits like a glove, I have total control when configuring which means it ends up tailor-made for my needs which in turn leads to increased productivity (like when I discovered tiling window managers and automatically setting up my workspaces for different types of activity). However, the vast amount of computer users out there doesn't need any of this, they use their computers as mere consumers and the OS is just something from which they launch their favourite applications and perhaps use to organise their personal files in folders. That said I don't think they particularly like Windows (nor dislike), it's just there and for the great majority there's really no reason to go through the hardship of learning a new OS environment and for most likely also new software. One could argue price but I reckon most think of Windows as something which comes for free with their computer purchase, or if not it actually comes for free when they pirate it just like they do with Photoshop (which seems to be installed in just about every windows machine I've ever come across). So no, I don't think Steam will cause a massive user influx, I do however think that it lower the barrier of entry for those who ARE considering a move to Linux (relatively few as they may be), and that's a good thing.

by danssig 14y ago

b0rsuk 14y ago

>I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. No, you are not sorry. It's one of those phrases that, like "good game" has evolved to function as an insult. It's a flammable material warning sign. >What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. They are going to port the rest at the Google Summer of Code. >Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. Then I wish you more luck. Multiple people in my family use Linux regularly. Even a distant 60ish relative decided to stick with Linux just for the heck of it. He bought a laptop that had Linux installed and he had already heard good things about it. He's an entrepreneur, not a businessman - not "running my company", but "always looking for something profitable or something to learn". Perhaps that's that's the difference - Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. > (Gaming) Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. I'll grant you that Windows 7 has been a success. As for comparisons to OSX, I dare to say Linux users are more... passionate, not to mention nerdy. This would explain why I mostly see requests for Linux ports of games, and OSX users are nowhere as vocal. Different appeal, I guess. Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. My guess would be "style", fashion, words like "gorgeous" and "just works" pop to mind. My unfounded speculation is that OSX devices are more common among people who just want their computer to get out of the way. Less excitable people play less games... Long story short - I believe Linux users are more interested in games. >Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? Because it works both ways. Linux has numerous features other systems only acquired recently or still don't have. Convenient package management, and a culture of it. Linux devs are accustomed to packaging applications. There are all sorts of magic you can do with booting from USB or other media. Frowned upon when you perceive your software as intellectual property. Ridiculous customization options. It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro, and I can't blame them because people have different needs. That's why it's misguided to try to come up with the ultimate Linux distro. It's like trying to come up with the best (non-programming) language. And culture matters. I moved from Ubuntu to Debian because I feel more comfortable with these people. By default, they tell me not only how to do X but why, and I love it. I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. For my taste, Ubuntu has too much "Guy X wrote this script and we all run it without questioning".

danssig 14y ago
>No, you are not sorry. Actually I meant "I'm sorry" to the forum since the sentence was a bit direct. >The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. Well, that's interesting. They continue to chase and that's good but Photoshop isn't staying still. By the time they get moved over to GEGL Photoshop will probably be on CS6 which is a whole new, improved interface. Adobe already has deblurring working in the labs (wouldn't expect it before a CS6.5 though). >Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. No, I think the difference is: the people I spend most of my time with aren't conservative but they're busy. They need a computer to just work and not require reading online, touching config files, etc. The computer should be as invisible as possible. Even today, that still makes Linux a no-go. >Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. Well, I'm a software developer and am pretty comfortable with unix administration but I got a mac (switched from Windows) because I just don't have time for mess with the computer. Between my job, commute and family there is no time to work on problems I don't care about (e.g. getting the wireless driver to work). >Convenient package management, and a culture of it. This is the main advantage Linux has over other platforms at the moment, but Steam has nothing to do with that. >It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro I personally think this has hurt Linux desktop adoption and keeps it mostly with an audience who is willing to spend time on such things (i.e. never the mainstream). > I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. I run Debian on my servers since I trust their test cycle more, like their installer and hate RPM (I recently tried Fedora again but it would have taken me more time to remove all the packages I didn't want than to just install Debian).
- ekianjo 14y ago
  > They continue to chase and that's good but Photoshop isn't staying still. By the time they get moved over to GEGL Photoshop will probably be on CS6 which is a whole new, improved interface. So what? GIMP is still an extremely powerful tool. I used to be a Photoshop proponent but once you realize how GIMP can easily be extended and tweaked it's a fantastic program. Its interface is not that horrible, by the way. First, it's better to use keyboard shortcuts for several tools, and second it's not because it's different from Photoshop it's necessarily bad. You need to work in a different way using GIMP, but you can get results just as good.

b0rsuk 14y ago

I forgot one important point. >Linux is the most powerful of the main three OSes but it also requires the most administration if you're doing much with it. Too many weasel words to reply with certainty, but I like this one: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/29/munich_linux_savings/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/29/munich_linux_savings... Munich's mayor claims €4m savings from Linux switch Lower costs and fewer support calls than Windows

seanp2k2 14y ago
Point: there isn't much malware for Linux (and the virus scanners for it scan for /windows viruses/), and there is no easy dtrace/strace/lsof for Windows (afaik...sysinternals tools aside kinda.) If all you really need is a web browser, mail client, IM client/Skype, a PDF reader, and libreOffice (try it before you knock it)...Linux is great for non-techies in office environments, and can be locked down very easily.
- Locke1689 14y ago
  * dtrace/strace/lsof for Windows (afaik...sysinternals tools aside kinda.)* StraceNT Point: there isn't much malware for Linux Windows 7 is probably more secure than vanilla Linux. iptables comes with no default configuration or configuration utility. POSIX.1e ACLs are less flexible than Windows ACEs. Desktop Linux isn't targeted very often, but Linux servers are targeted and exploited all the time.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    True, if desktop Linux where to become mainstream you can expect many rogue PPAs containing malware as well as existing trusted repos becoming huge juicy attack targets.

gillianseed 14y ago

I agree with you somewhat. I'm a fulltime Linux user and also working as a programmer, for me Linux is the perfect system as it gives me full control and is, IMO, superior to Windows as a developing platform which is what I mainly use it for, although I also dabble alot with graphics in various forms using Blender,Gimp,Inkscape and Mypaint. Anyway, for me Linux just fits like a glove, I have total control when configuring which means it ends up tailor-made for my needs which in turn leads to increased productivity (like when I discovered tiling window managers and automatically setting up my workspaces for different types of activity). However, the vast amount of computer users out there doesn't need any of this, they use their computers as mere consumers and the OS is just something from which they launch their favourite applications and perhaps use to organise their personal files in folders. That said I don't think they particularly like Windows (nor dislike), it's just there and for the great majority there's really no reason to go through the hardship of learning a new OS environment and for most likely also new software. One could argue price but I reckon most think of Windows as something which comes for free with their computer purchase, or if not it actually comes for free when they pirate it just like they do with Photoshop (which seems to be installed in just about every windows machine I've ever come across). So no, I don't think Steam will cause a massive user influx, I do however think that it lower the barrier of entry for those who ARE considering a move to Linux (relatively few as they may be), and that's a good thing.