5 ms·

The journey of the Roman gladius and other swords

92 points by CHB0403085482 3y ago

cf1241290841 3y ago
Slightly related, i can also highly recommend anyone interested in such topics to look at the roman javelin, the Pilum. Its design is outright genius. The thin long tip would penetrate shields far enough to possibly injure the guy behind it but also get stuck in a way that made the shield unwieldy to the point of uselessness. Visualization from the Smithsonian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxY3CzN2Kkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxY3CzN2Kkc
- yorwba 3y ago
  Coincidentally, acoup.blog recently also covered the pilum https://acoup.blog/2023/11/24/collections-roman-infantry-tactics-why-the-pilum-and-not-a-spear/ https://acoup.blog/2023/11/24/collections-roman-infantry-tac...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- genman 3y ago
  Impact also bent the tip enough to make it impractical to throw it back.
  - cf1241290841 3y ago
    The acoup.blog article mentions that this was likely a side effect. And given how expensive they were to make, that makes sense to me. Especially if the theory about when in a fight they were used is correct. Its length and the tip being wider then the rest was likely enough to prevent reuse
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  The interesting thing I learned about a year ago: "Pontius Pilate", the infamous New Testament governor who sentenced Jesus to death and inscribed his "INRI" plaque, has a name which is invariably presented untranslated. So I could already tell what "Pontius" meant but I needed to look up the translation of "Pilate". It turns out that his name literally means "the Javelin-Armed Bridge". And that's a very interesting symbolism indeed, if you sort of mentally substitute that phrasing everywhere his name is mentioned. Just a thought.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Wikipedia notes the following: > His praenomen (first name) is unknown;[21] his cognomen Pilatus might mean "skilled with the javelin (pilum)", but it could also refer to the pileus or Phrygian cap, possibly indicating that one of Pilate's ancestors was a freedman.[22] If it means "skilled with the javelin", it is possible that Pilate won the cognomen for himself while serving in the Roman military;[20] it is also possible that his father acquired the cognomen through military skill.[23] In the Gospels of Mark and John, Pilate is only called by his cognomen, which Marie-Joseph Ollivier takes to mean that this was the name by which he was generally known in common speech.[24] The name Pontius suggests that an ancestor of his came from Samnium in central, southern Italy, and he may have belonged to the family of Gavius Pontius and Pontius Telesinus, two leaders of the Samnites in the third and first centuries BC, respectively, before their full incorporation to the Roman Republic.[25] Like all but one other governor of Judaea, Pilate was of the equestrian order, a middle rank of the Roman nobility.[26] As one of the attested Pontii, Pontius Aquila (an assassin of Julius Caesar) was a tribune of the plebs; the family must have originally been of plebeian origin and later became ennobled as equestrians.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  I've never seen a video illustrate to me why the pilum was genius better than that. The guy even shows that, even if you did have a free hand, you're still pretty f'd. Also, to see the long tip bend to make it even harder never occurred to me. I've seen videos long ago on history channel illustrate fake ones they made that were much shorter and was baffled why I would drop my shield. Thank you for posting that.
- smdyc1 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. Amazing penetrative power. More importantly, I had no idea how difficult it would be to pull a pilum out.
  - cf1241290841 3y ago
    >I had no idea how difficult it would be to pull a pilum out. Its one of the important roles historically accurate reenactment plays in figuring this stuff out. The acoup article also mentions that you can hold a pilum in your shield hand with your thumb for a short time but it being really uncomfortable.
w0mbat 3y ago
“Gladius” was also the common Roman slang word for “penis”, so much so that the accompanying Latin word for a sword holder or scabbard, “vagina”, became the standard English word for a body part, losing its original meaning.
- throwaway82i4 3y ago
  As mentioned below, a different sword is called Kukris. In Norwegian and Swedish, we have the word "kuk" that is a slang for the similarly named English "cock" Maybe there is a connection there as well?
  - ted_bunny 3y ago
    Only if the root is the same in Nepalese.
asylteltine 3y ago
As a man, I think about the Roman Empire at least once a week if not more.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  I dont know if you are serious or not, but i am thinking about it more than i should. I keep dreaming of a united western world equal in scope and power. Right now it seems like the US is the only country that gets anywhere near the empire’s might but would be great to simply do what should be done and unite all aligned nations in a way that also respects diversity among cultures and ways of doing things. Free europe is already dependant on the US for security and the natural path is to get even closer.
  - icegreentea2 3y ago
    The blog author actually has an article somewhat related to your thoughts - https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coalition/ https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coa...
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      I’ll have to reread it but this conclusion: “As a result, I don’t think the coalition is likely to go away.” Makes me particularly happy. There are a few things I dont like about the us and the west in general - one being an excessive reliance on corporations and a diminishing small business culture, one that risks damaging the very freedoms we enjoy - but otherwise I think we are pretty much doing the right thing. A bit more alignment wouldnt hurt either. The benefits pax americana have brought are simply incredibly beneficial to the free world - without the us there wouldnt be much free world to talk about anyway. I think it’s in the interest of all free countries to protect america in return as that project is by far the greatest achievement so far in terms of nation building. More unity means we will also be able to start looking beyond our planet as that will require the force that only we as one can provide.
  - panarky 3y ago
LanzVonL 3y ago
Interesting to note that the old Nepalese word for the Kukri is Kepis.
- ted_bunny 3y ago
  Why's that?
  - LanzVonL 3y ago
    Because it quite resembles the khopesh, from ancient Egypt. And the word is nearly the same too.
B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
"a clear case of the La Tène style of sword crossing cultural boundaries – Romans are not Gauls – a thing that it turns out this sword-type will be very good at." Yeah, no kidding ...

92 points by CHB0403085482 3y ago

Slightly related, i can also highly recommend anyone interested in such topics to look at the roman javelin, the Pilum. Its design is outright genius. The thin long tip would penetrate shields far enough to possibly injure the guy behind it but also get stuck in a way that made the shield unwieldy to the point of uselessness. Visualization from the Smithsonian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxY3CzN2Kkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxY3CzN2Kkc

yorwba 3y ago
Coincidentally, acoup.blog recently also covered the pilum https://acoup.blog/2023/11/24/collections-roman-infantry-tactics-why-the-pilum-and-not-a-spear/ https://acoup.blog/2023/11/24/collections-roman-infantry-tac...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
genman 3y ago
Impact also bent the tip enough to make it impractical to throw it back.
- cf1241290841 3y ago
  The acoup.blog article mentions that this was likely a side effect. And given how expensive they were to make, that makes sense to me. Especially if the theory about when in a fight they were used is correct. Its length and the tip being wider then the rest was likely enough to prevent reuse
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
The interesting thing I learned about a year ago: "Pontius Pilate", the infamous New Testament governor who sentenced Jesus to death and inscribed his "INRI" plaque, has a name which is invariably presented untranslated. So I could already tell what "Pontius" meant but I needed to look up the translation of "Pilate". It turns out that his name literally means "the Javelin-Armed Bridge". And that's a very interesting symbolism indeed, if you sort of mentally substitute that phrasing everywhere his name is mentioned. Just a thought.
- philwelch 3y ago
  Wikipedia notes the following: > His praenomen (first name) is unknown;[21] his cognomen Pilatus might mean "skilled with the javelin (pilum)", but it could also refer to the pileus or Phrygian cap, possibly indicating that one of Pilate's ancestors was a freedman.[22] If it means "skilled with the javelin", it is possible that Pilate won the cognomen for himself while serving in the Roman military;[20] it is also possible that his father acquired the cognomen through military skill.[23] In the Gospels of Mark and John, Pilate is only called by his cognomen, which Marie-Joseph Ollivier takes to mean that this was the name by which he was generally known in common speech.[24] The name Pontius suggests that an ancestor of his came from Samnium in central, southern Italy, and he may have belonged to the family of Gavius Pontius and Pontius Telesinus, two leaders of the Samnites in the third and first centuries BC, respectively, before their full incorporation to the Roman Republic.[25] Like all but one other governor of Judaea, Pilate was of the equestrian order, a middle rank of the Roman nobility.[26] As one of the attested Pontii, Pontius Aquila (an assassin of Julius Caesar) was a tribune of the plebs; the family must have originally been of plebeian origin and later became ennobled as equestrians.
jakderrida 3y ago
I've never seen a video illustrate to me why the pilum was genius better than that. The guy even shows that, even if you did have a free hand, you're still pretty f'd. Also, to see the long tip bend to make it even harder never occurred to me. I've seen videos long ago on history channel illustrate fake ones they made that were much shorter and was baffled why I would drop my shield. Thank you for posting that.
smdyc1 3y ago
Thanks for the link. Amazing penetrative power. More importantly, I had no idea how difficult it would be to pull a pilum out.
- cf1241290841 3y ago
  >I had no idea how difficult it would be to pull a pilum out. Its one of the important roles historically accurate reenactment plays in figuring this stuff out. The acoup article also mentions that you can hold a pilum in your shield hand with your thumb for a short time but it being really uncomfortable.

w0mbat 3y ago

“Gladius” was also the common Roman slang word for “penis”, so much so that the accompanying Latin word for a sword holder or scabbard, “vagina”, became the standard English word for a body part, losing its original meaning.

throwaway82i4 3y ago
As mentioned below, a different sword is called Kukris. In Norwegian and Swedish, we have the word "kuk" that is a slang for the similarly named English "cock" Maybe there is a connection there as well?
- ted_bunny 3y ago
  Only if the root is the same in Nepalese.

asylteltine 3y ago

As a man, I think about the Roman Empire at least once a week if not more.

gumballindie 3y ago
I dont know if you are serious or not, but i am thinking about it more than i should. I keep dreaming of a united western world equal in scope and power. Right now it seems like the US is the only country that gets anywhere near the empire’s might but would be great to simply do what should be done and unite all aligned nations in a way that also respects diversity among cultures and ways of doing things. Free europe is already dependant on the US for security and the natural path is to get even closer.
- icegreentea2 3y ago
  The blog author actually has an article somewhat related to your thoughts - https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coalition/ https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coa...
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    I’ll have to reread it but this conclusion: “As a result, I don’t think the coalition is likely to go away.” Makes me particularly happy. There are a few things I dont like about the us and the west in general - one being an excessive reliance on corporations and a diminishing small business culture, one that risks damaging the very freedoms we enjoy - but otherwise I think we are pretty much doing the right thing. A bit more alignment wouldnt hurt either. The benefits pax americana have brought are simply incredibly beneficial to the free world - without the us there wouldnt be much free world to talk about anyway. I think it’s in the interest of all free countries to protect america in return as that project is by far the greatest achievement so far in terms of nation building. More unity means we will also be able to start looking beyond our planet as that will require the force that only we as one can provide.
- panarky 3y ago

LanzVonL 3y ago

Interesting to note that the old Nepalese word for the Kukri is Kepis.

ted_bunny 3y ago
Why's that?
- LanzVonL 3y ago
  Because it quite resembles the khopesh, from ancient Egypt. And the word is nearly the same too.

B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago

"a clear case of the La Tène style of sword crossing cultural boundaries – Romans are not Gauls – a thing that it turns out this sword-type will be very good at." Yeah, no kidding ...