5 ms·

The very notion of a service based industry is idiotic and feels gutturally wrong. If the US can’t bring back it manufacturing industries, we’re done for.

nateglims 3y ago
As an engineer I also feel the "realness" or whatever of manufacturing a real product, but countries that don't shift into a service economy tend to struggle more: there's fewer profitable investments and not enough places to sell goods. Our liberalization policies from the 90s until recently would not let us maintain the industries, and places like Germany or China with industrial policies more favorable to manufacturing are criticized by a lot of our policy makers, economists, media, etc.
- eru 3y ago
  > Our liberalization policies from the 90s until recently would not let us maintain the industries, [...] What is that supposed to mean? Btw, value added in manufacturing in the US has not shrunken during that time, as far as I am aware.
maxerickson 3y ago
It's not like there isn't manufacturing in the US. It's not great that the US shipbuilders are apparently fat and lazy, but for example, the US has 70+ modern destroyers in service, compared to the ~dozen that the apparently much more efficient Japanese and Korean shipbuilders have constructed for their countries. The complaint is thus that we should have more for what we paid...
eru 3y ago
Why? What's so magic about manufacturing?
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago
  Maybe the fact that you need the physical, manufactured goods to live a comfortable life unlike 'financial services', that won't cloth you, won't transport you and definitively won't feed you.
  - IdiocyInAction 3y ago
    Those manufactured goods partially get enabled through these services
    - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
      Somehow we did just fine without fractional reserve system. And historically loaning money with interest was considered a great sin. So manufacturing can exist without any modern finance but modern finance can't exist when it's not backed by the 'real' economy.
      - eru 3y ago
        The industrial revolution was (partially) enabled by finance. Especially Scotland managed to catch up so much with England during that time, because it had a better and more robust financial system. I bring up the industrial revolution, because manufacturing before the industrial revolution existed, but with such low productivity that I am sure you wouldn't want to go back to that state. I'm not sure the notion that interest was considered a sin by some people at some point in time carries much weight. First, have a look at all the other things considered great sins. Second, banks in the European middle ages did functionally earn interest income, they just used techniques that should be familiar to any modern tax optimiser or even sanction buster to officially call is something else. One technique was to charge late fees. Technically as a debtor, you could pay your loan back on time at 0%, but if you ever wanted another loan, you better be fashionable late and pay your interest disguised as a late fee. Another technique was to give you the loan in one currency and have you pay back in another. Then you can disguise the interest payments in the exchange rate. There's also plenty of examples involving shenanigans with derivatives. Have a look at modern Muslim finance for more examples. So that golden age of no interest never really existed to begin with.

nateglims 3y ago

As an engineer I also feel the "realness" or whatever of manufacturing a real product, but countries that don't shift into a service economy tend to struggle more: there's fewer profitable investments and not enough places to sell goods. Our liberalization policies from the 90s until recently would not let us maintain the industries, and places like Germany or China with industrial policies more favorable to manufacturing are criticized by a lot of our policy makers, economists, media, etc.

eru 3y ago
> Our liberalization policies from the 90s until recently would not let us maintain the industries, [...] What is that supposed to mean? Btw, value added in manufacturing in the US has not shrunken during that time, as far as I am aware.

maxerickson 3y ago

It's not like there isn't manufacturing in the US. It's not great that the US shipbuilders are apparently fat and lazy, but for example, the US has 70+ modern destroyers in service, compared to the ~dozen that the apparently much more efficient Japanese and Korean shipbuilders have constructed for their countries. The complaint is thus that we should have more for what we paid...

eru 3y ago

Why? What's so magic about manufacturing?

pi-e-sigma 3y ago
Maybe the fact that you need the physical, manufactured goods to live a comfortable life unlike 'financial services', that won't cloth you, won't transport you and definitively won't feed you.
- IdiocyInAction 3y ago
  Those manufactured goods partially get enabled through these services
  - pi-e-sigma 3y ago
    Somehow we did just fine without fractional reserve system. And historically loaning money with interest was considered a great sin. So manufacturing can exist without any modern finance but modern finance can't exist when it's not backed by the 'real' economy.
    - eru 3y ago
      The industrial revolution was (partially) enabled by finance. Especially Scotland managed to catch up so much with England during that time, because it had a better and more robust financial system. I bring up the industrial revolution, because manufacturing before the industrial revolution existed, but with such low productivity that I am sure you wouldn't want to go back to that state. I'm not sure the notion that interest was considered a sin by some people at some point in time carries much weight. First, have a look at all the other things considered great sins. Second, banks in the European middle ages did functionally earn interest income, they just used techniques that should be familiar to any modern tax optimiser or even sanction buster to officially call is something else. One technique was to charge late fees. Technically as a debtor, you could pay your loan back on time at 0%, but if you ever wanted another loan, you better be fashionable late and pay your interest disguised as a late fee. Another technique was to give you the loan in one currency and have you pay back in another. Then you can disguise the interest payments in the exchange rate. There's also plenty of examples involving shenanigans with derivatives. Have a look at modern Muslim finance for more examples. So that golden age of no interest never really existed to begin with.