7 ms·

"I would use Linux only, but I like game X and Y." is incredibly common attitude among people who use dual boot. I'm not making this up, the phrase pops up very

by b0rsuk 15y ago

"I would use Linux only, but I like game X and Y." is incredibly common attitude among people who use dual boot. I'm not making this up, the phrase pops up very often on various forums, especially in context of linux ports for newly announced games. You don't see many complaints about GIMP being inadequate (and with the recent news that will be the end of GIMP complaints), or OpenOffice/LibreOffice incompatibility. Yes, once in a while someone has issues with very tricky/advanced spreadsheet or text document, but with minimum goodwill on the part of the creator it can be worked around. Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. And once that happens you are going to see pressure to use it in workplace. Game developers will be releasing Linux versions much more often, like in the old days of OpenGL. Really, there are many people who want to use Linux but hold out because of games.

NickPollard 15y ago
Anecdotal, but I am exactly one of these people - I dual boot, and the only reason I have Windows is for games. Then when you suggest this to others, the dual boot puts them off, and they don't want to be without games either. Now there's a long way from 'Steam client for Linux' to 'Most AAA games available on Linux', but that is definitely the largest problem facing Linux adoption on the desktop.
- freehunter 15y ago
  A couple times a year I blow away my Windows install and go Linux-only. Then a AAA game comes out, and VMWare just doesn't cut it. I've recently gotten tired of Skyrim and put it away for a while, but then the GW2 beta is this weekend...
qznc 15y ago
Even with Steam, important games like those Blizzard titles are not available on Linux.
- nnnnni 15y ago
  Yet.
- darkstalker 15y ago
  WoW runs fine on linux with wine
  - naitbit 15y ago
    Actually most Blizzard games run fine on wine. I've played games like: Diablo 3 beta(game run out of the box, but there are problems with installing), Starcraft 2 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20882 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&#38... Starcraft http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=149 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&#38... Warcraft 3 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=897 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application... I guess that porting to Mac made them fix most of hard coded system assumptions. Wine is amazing but it still is not the same as native support, because of small performance hit or possibility that game that you bought will stop working in the future (ie: because some game patch or anticheat protection that will detect wine as modification). Because of that Steam and Source games are very welcome. Probably I'll buy them and don't play them because of lack of time(just like all HIBs).
    - jiggy2011 15y ago
      Good point , I've had a few programs that I was happily using in Wine suddenly auto update themselves and start crashing all the time or cease working at all. For this reason I simply couldn't recommend using Wine to anyone who requires a particular program for their work (unless the developer specifically targets Wine as a supported platform , such as XMLSpy). Also some games have DRM which does not work with Wine, so the only way to get it to work is to run a cracked version. Steam should fix that.
slowpoke 15y ago
>Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. For the consumer market, yes. As much as I love GNU/Linux and support Free Software, the reality is that pretty much all business runs on Word and, even more so, Excel. Sad, but true.
- codesuela 15y ago
  Office 2007 and below runs just fine with Wine
- bad_user 15y ago
  Not all businesses. I've worked for and with plenty of small businesses where the norm was OpenOffice, running on top of Linux and Mac OS X, with non-technical people having no problem using it (after a period of bitching about it, because people in general are conservative). For example I helped a local kindergarten switch all their computers to Linux and OpenOffice (one in every classroom, plus 4 others used for administrative purposes). They are happy with the results and the BSA is not harassing them anymore. My wife works there and I'm happy to help out whenever problems occur and it's a lot better for me to SSH into those machines instead of going over there (and surely, you can also do that with Remote Desktop on Windows, but you don't have the same level of control and it's harder to secure, IMHO). Granted, it's not always easy for a company to make that switch, because as I said people are pretty conservative and fear change. This is why developers are so fluid in regards to the technologies used, because developers know how to learn the basics and build from there instead of rote learning the path from A to B. The one problem Linux does have in regards to businesses is integration with Exchange ... this is actually the deal breaker, as in Office coupled with Exchange is the real killer app, and there still isn't anything that can replace it for big organizations. But small businesses are better off going with services such as Google Apps nowadays.
  - sciurus 15y ago
    "The one problem Linux does have in regards to businesses is integration with Exchange" You're forgetting active directory and group policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Policy
cageface 15y ago
I know many, many people that would never even consider switching to Linux until Office and the Adobe suite are first-class citizens. As happy as I am to see Steam come to Linux, I don't expect Linux to grow much desktop market share as a result. The future of user-facing Linux is Android.
- b0rsuk 15y ago
  A common complaint against Linux game development is that it lacks a standarized platform and different distributions have their quirks. While I don't like Steam and don't use it (DRM, no resale, obnoxious pop-ups...) this is going to give game devs/publishers something to target. In my opinion it will be more psychological than practical. Source engine games, one or unrelated two AAA show up - and suddenly minor devs are starting to think "Why not ? Me too !". I don't delude myself, though: several dozen percent games still won't show up on Linux. But it beats having to rely on the 5% games that are multiplatform.
mattbriggs 15y ago
I hate both the gimp and libre office, and would gladly pay for alternatives available on other platforms if I didn't have to use them, even though both are free. At least with the majority of what I use, Linux software in a general way is still pretty far off from the competition.
danssig 15y ago
I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. >and with the recent news that will be the end of GIMP complaints What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. If you're playing with cat pictures then GIMP is probably ok, but if you're a professional who's livelihood depends on your photo editing software GIMP just doesn't cut it. >or OpenOffice/LibreOffice incompatibility Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. >Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. Linux having clunky but functional copies of everything Windows has doesn't mean everyone is going to switch. It just means the small percentage of people who do want to switch are finally to the point where Mac OSX was years ago. >I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? I'm the only person I talk to on a regular basis who has linux at all and I would never consider using it as a primary desktop. I switched to Mac so I could get all the command line goodness, first/second class citizen status for the development tools I want to use and ease of administration. Linux is the most powerful of the main three OSes but it also requires the most administration if you're doing much with it. And finally, you're making a bizarre assumption that all that's holding back "the year of the Linux desktop" is games. Do you actually know why Mac OSX finally started gaining market share? It was because Mac is the only place you can develop apps for the App store. What do I have to have linux for? Nothing. >Really, there are many people who want to use Linux but hold out because of games. Yes. Many as in hundreds, maybe thousands...
- b0rsuk 15y ago
  >I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. No, you are not sorry. It's one of those phrases that, like "good game" has evolved to function as an insult. It's a flammable material warning sign. >What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. They are going to port the rest at the Google Summer of Code. >Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. Then I wish you more luck. Multiple people in my family use Linux regularly. Even a distant 60ish relative decided to stick with Linux just for the heck of it. He bought a laptop that had Linux installed and he had already heard good things about it. He's an entrepreneur, not a businessman - not "running my company", but "always looking for something profitable or something to learn". Perhaps that's that's the difference - Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. > (Gaming) Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. I'll grant you that Windows 7 has been a success. As for comparisons to OSX, I dare to say Linux users are more... passionate, not to mention nerdy. This would explain why I mostly see requests for Linux ports of games, and OSX users are nowhere as vocal. Different appeal, I guess. Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. My guess would be "style", fashion, words like "gorgeous" and "just works" pop to mind. My unfounded speculation is that OSX devices are more common among people who just want their computer to get out of the way. Less excitable people play less games... Long story short - I believe Linux users are more interested in games. >Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? Because it works both ways. Linux has numerous features other systems only acquired recently or still don't have. Convenient package management, and a culture of it. Linux devs are accustomed to packaging applications. There are all sorts of magic you can do with booting from USB or other media. Frowned upon when you perceive your software as intellectual property. Ridiculous customization options. It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro, and I can't blame them because people have different needs. That's why it's misguided to try to come up with the ultimate Linux distro. It's like trying to come up with the best (non-programming) language. And culture matters. I moved from Ubuntu to Debian because I feel more comfortable with these people. By default, they tell me not only how to do X but why, and I love it. I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. For my taste, Ubuntu has too much "Guy X wrote this script and we all run it without questioning".
xsmasher 15y ago
> I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. Why bypassing OSX? And why would linux support cause a flood of Linux games when it hasn't worked for OSX?
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  One thing to bear in mind: People who are really into high end games will often want to build their own machines (or get a friend to do it , or buy an alienware PC). This means that gamers are very price/performance sensitive when it comes to buying the computers, I know this is a reason that many of my gaming friends will shy away from choosing a Mac when it comes to buying a computer. They would rather buy the PC for the same price as an iMac because with the PC they will usually be able to get a higher end graphics card + upgradeablity for the same price. if Linux became a viable gaming platform then they will be able to buy the same sort of PCs they always did and will be able to re-invest the $100 or so they would have paid for a Windows License in faster hardware.
- b0rsuk 15y ago
  My simpleton argument: 1. Linux users are much nerdier. 2. Nerds play more video games. Some more speculations: * Windows appeals to people who want to be in majority. This makes them feel comfortable. Of course, it has a stronghold in business world too. * Mac devices are seen as status symbol. It's elegant, 'just works', 'stylish' 'gorgeous'. And they don't use it /despite/ highish cost - they use it in part /because/ it's expensive. You don't actually need to do anything with it, it's enough others see you have it. * Linux appeals to people who like to brag how much they can do. Tweakers, tinkerers.

by b0rsuk 15y ago

NickPollard 15y ago

Anecdotal, but I am exactly one of these people - I dual boot, and the only reason I have Windows is for games. Then when you suggest this to others, the dual boot puts them off, and they don't want to be without games either. Now there's a long way from 'Steam client for Linux' to 'Most AAA games available on Linux', but that is definitely the largest problem facing Linux adoption on the desktop.

freehunter 15y ago
A couple times a year I blow away my Windows install and go Linux-only. Then a AAA game comes out, and VMWare just doesn't cut it. I've recently gotten tired of Skyrim and put it away for a while, but then the GW2 beta is this weekend...

qznc 15y ago

Even with Steam, important games like those Blizzard titles are not available on Linux.

nnnnni 15y ago
Yet.
darkstalker 15y ago
WoW runs fine on linux with wine
- naitbit 15y ago
  Actually most Blizzard games run fine on wine. I've played games like: Diablo 3 beta(game run out of the box, but there are problems with installing), Starcraft 2 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20882 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&#38... Starcraft http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=149 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&#38... Warcraft 3 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=897 http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application... I guess that porting to Mac made them fix most of hard coded system assumptions. Wine is amazing but it still is not the same as native support, because of small performance hit or possibility that game that you bought will stop working in the future (ie: because some game patch or anticheat protection that will detect wine as modification). Because of that Steam and Source games are very welcome. Probably I'll buy them and don't play them because of lack of time(just like all HIBs).
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    Good point , I've had a few programs that I was happily using in Wine suddenly auto update themselves and start crashing all the time or cease working at all. For this reason I simply couldn't recommend using Wine to anyone who requires a particular program for their work (unless the developer specifically targets Wine as a supported platform , such as XMLSpy). Also some games have DRM which does not work with Wine, so the only way to get it to work is to run a cracked version. Steam should fix that.

slowpoke 15y ago

>Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. For the consumer market, yes. As much as I love GNU/Linux and support Free Software, the reality is that pretty much all business runs on Word and, even more so, Excel. Sad, but true.

codesuela 15y ago
Office 2007 and below runs just fine with Wine
bad_user 15y ago
Not all businesses. I've worked for and with plenty of small businesses where the norm was OpenOffice, running on top of Linux and Mac OS X, with non-technical people having no problem using it (after a period of bitching about it, because people in general are conservative). For example I helped a local kindergarten switch all their computers to Linux and OpenOffice (one in every classroom, plus 4 others used for administrative purposes). They are happy with the results and the BSA is not harassing them anymore. My wife works there and I'm happy to help out whenever problems occur and it's a lot better for me to SSH into those machines instead of going over there (and surely, you can also do that with Remote Desktop on Windows, but you don't have the same level of control and it's harder to secure, IMHO). Granted, it's not always easy for a company to make that switch, because as I said people are pretty conservative and fear change. This is why developers are so fluid in regards to the technologies used, because developers know how to learn the basics and build from there instead of rote learning the path from A to B. The one problem Linux does have in regards to businesses is integration with Exchange ... this is actually the deal breaker, as in Office coupled with Exchange is the real killer app, and there still isn't anything that can replace it for big organizations. But small businesses are better off going with services such as Google Apps nowadays.
- sciurus 15y ago
  "The one problem Linux does have in regards to businesses is integration with Exchange" You're forgetting active directory and group policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_Policy

cageface 15y ago

I know many, many people that would never even consider switching to Linux until Office and the Adobe suite are first-class citizens. As happy as I am to see Steam come to Linux, I don't expect Linux to grow much desktop market share as a result. The future of user-facing Linux is Android.

b0rsuk 15y ago
A common complaint against Linux game development is that it lacks a standarized platform and different distributions have their quirks. While I don't like Steam and don't use it (DRM, no resale, obnoxious pop-ups...) this is going to give game devs/publishers something to target. In my opinion it will be more psychological than practical. Source engine games, one or unrelated two AAA show up - and suddenly minor devs are starting to think "Why not ? Me too !". I don't delude myself, though: several dozen percent games still won't show up on Linux. But it beats having to rely on the 5% games that are multiplatform.

mattbriggs 15y ago

I hate both the gimp and libre office, and would gladly pay for alternatives available on other platforms if I didn't have to use them, even though both are free. At least with the majority of what I use, Linux software in a general way is still pretty far off from the competition.

danssig 15y ago

I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. >and with the recent news that will be the end of GIMP complaints What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. If you're playing with cat pictures then GIMP is probably ok, but if you're a professional who's livelihood depends on your photo editing software GIMP just doesn't cut it. >or OpenOffice/LibreOffice incompatibility Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. >Gaming is really the last bastion of Windows. Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. Linux having clunky but functional copies of everything Windows has doesn't mean everyone is going to switch. It just means the small percentage of people who do want to switch are finally to the point where Mac OSX was years ago. >I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? I'm the only person I talk to on a regular basis who has linux at all and I would never consider using it as a primary desktop. I switched to Mac so I could get all the command line goodness, first/second class citizen status for the development tools I want to use and ease of administration. Linux is the most powerful of the main three OSes but it also requires the most administration if you're doing much with it. And finally, you're making a bizarre assumption that all that's holding back "the year of the Linux desktop" is games. Do you actually know why Mac OSX finally started gaining market share? It was because Mac is the only place you can develop apps for the App store. What do I have to have linux for? Nothing. >Really, there are many people who want to use Linux but hold out because of games. Yes. Many as in hundreds, maybe thousands...

b0rsuk 15y ago
>I'm sorry but this post strikes me as fantasy. Your social circle must be vastly different from mine. No, you are not sorry. It's one of those phrases that, like "good game" has evolved to function as an insult. It's a flammable material warning sign. >What news is this? Photoshop is still on a complete other plane of existence and that gap gets further every year, not closer. The first 90% of GIMP has been ported to GEGL, the new core. They are going to port the rest at the Google Summer of Code. >Yep, your circle has nothing in common with mine. I haven't talked to anyone in years who took Open/Libre Office seriously. Then I wish you more luck. Multiple people in my family use Linux regularly. Even a distant 60ish relative decided to stick with Linux just for the heck of it. He bought a laptop that had Linux installed and he had already heard good things about it. He's an entrepreneur, not a businessman - not "running my company", but "always looking for something profitable or something to learn". Perhaps that's that's the difference - Linux is less likely to appeal to conservative people. > (Gaming) Haha, no. Not at all. I think you're confused about where people actually stand. All windows users are not sitting in their desks in distress dreaming of the day that they can finally drop windows and switch to Linux. Many of them like it. I'll grant you that Windows 7 has been a success. As for comparisons to OSX, I dare to say Linux users are more... passionate, not to mention nerdy. This would explain why I mostly see requests for Linux ports of games, and OSX users are nowhere as vocal. Different appeal, I guess. Linux appeals more to power users and various enthusiasts, while OSX - hard to say as I know no one using it. My guess would be "style", fashion, words like "gorgeous" and "just works" pop to mind. My unfounded speculation is that OSX devices are more common among people who just want their computer to get out of the way. Less excitable people play less games... Long story short - I believe Linux users are more interested in games. >Haha! Steam is going to do this? You know Steam is already on OSX right? Why would Linux finally having a capability that everyone else has had for years cause Linux to surpass Mac OSX? Because it works both ways. Linux has numerous features other systems only acquired recently or still don't have. Convenient package management, and a culture of it. Linux devs are accustomed to packaging applications. There are all sorts of magic you can do with booting from USB or other media. Frowned upon when you perceive your software as intellectual property. Ridiculous customization options. It's almost like no two people use the same Linux distro, and I can't blame them because people have different needs. That's why it's misguided to try to come up with the ultimate Linux distro. It's like trying to come up with the best (non-programming) language. And culture matters. I moved from Ubuntu to Debian because I feel more comfortable with these people. By default, they tell me not only how to do X but why, and I love it. I admit many Debian users act arrogant and grumpy, but I consider these flaws less annoying. For my taste, Ubuntu has too much "Guy X wrote this script and we all run it without questioning".

xsmasher 15y ago

> I predict a surge in Linux popularity once Steam is ported, bypassing OSX. Why bypassing OSX? And why would linux support cause a flood of Linux games when it hasn't worked for OSX?

jiggy2011 15y ago
One thing to bear in mind: People who are really into high end games will often want to build their own machines (or get a friend to do it , or buy an alienware PC). This means that gamers are very price/performance sensitive when it comes to buying the computers, I know this is a reason that many of my gaming friends will shy away from choosing a Mac when it comes to buying a computer. They would rather buy the PC for the same price as an iMac because with the PC they will usually be able to get a higher end graphics card + upgradeablity for the same price. if Linux became a viable gaming platform then they will be able to buy the same sort of PCs they always did and will be able to re-invest the $100 or so they would have paid for a Windows License in faster hardware.
b0rsuk 15y ago
My simpleton argument: 1. Linux users are much nerdier. 2. Nerds play more video games. Some more speculations: * Windows appeals to people who want to be in majority. This makes them feel comfortable. Of course, it has a stronghold in business world too. * Mac devices are seen as status symbol. It's elegant, 'just works', 'stylish' 'gorgeous'. And they don't use it /despite/ highish cost - they use it in part /because/ it's expensive. You don't actually need to do anything with it, it's enough others see you have it. * Linux appeals to people who like to brag how much they can do. Tweakers, tinkerers.