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I categorically reject the premise that giving Israel free rein to be as vengeful and unsubtle as they want is the only way they can degrade Hamas as an organiz

by krapp 3y ago

I categorically reject the premise that giving Israel free rein to be as vengeful and unsubtle as they want is the only way they can degrade Hamas as an organization. If that's the case, then Hamas is perfectly justified in retaliating with equal violence against Israel. Either we hold modern societies, particularly our allies, up to standards of civilization or else we're back to eye for an eye. Yes, we want to reel Israel in before they can commit genocide regardless of whether it degrades Hamas as an organization because Palestinians are human beings, not orcs. "Just let them keep killing until the problem goes away" isn't supposed to be an acceptable policy position in modern societies. And it turns out it isn't - except to Israel, the US and Micronesian states which I assume are just vassals to the US.

somewhereoutth 3y ago
How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Hamas was never imposed on the Palestinian people, of which a sizable proportion support the elimination of Israel ("from the river to the sea"). Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds.
- Qem 3y ago
  > How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Stopping blowing kids to pieces through indiscriminate air raids and ending apartheid would be a good start. That will cause a big recruitment problem for Hamas. Perhaps if people are given a bare minimum of dignity, if they have something to lose, I don't think they could be easily motivated to rush tanks by foot with handheld IEDs like in Saving Private Ryan.
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Agreed that indiscriminate air raids are both militarily ineffective and terrible for civilians. But it is so easy to reach for them against an enemy without proper air defenses, as the chance of your own casualties is very low. It is also NATO/US doctrine - establish air superiority and then explode everything vaguely threatening.
- krapp 3y ago
  >Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds. So when Hamas kills indiscriminately, it's evil, but when Israel does it, it's simply necessary?
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Hamas opened the gates of hell, awfully hard to prevent what happens next. Imagine if the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas (again) - how could a similarly overwhelming response be avoided?
    - krapp 3y ago
      If the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas, indiscriminately "opening the gates of hell" on Mexican civilians would not be justifiable. A similarly overwhelming response could be avoided because we are human beings, not demons driven only by an insatiable lust for vengeance and blood. I think I'm done with this conversation. Good night.
    - johnnyworker 3y ago
      Opening the gates of hell is not an actual thing. And the comparison with Mexico falls flat because the US isn't run by a government working hand in hand with religious zealots who talk about how Mexico actually belongs to them, and if they can just drive out or kill all people there, they could move there. > "In the context of de-legitimization - Hamas is an asset (for Israel) and the Palestinian Authority is a liability" -- Smotrich, https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1741196470399783296 https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1741196470399783296 > If we act strategically correctly, there will be immigration and we will live in the Gaza Strip. We will not allow a situation where 2 million people live there. If there are 100-200 thousand Arabs in Gaza, all the talk about the day after will be different. They want to leave, they have been living in the ghetto for 75 years and are in need" -- also Smotrich, https://twitter.com/GLZRadio/status/1741347524693127398 https://twitter.com/GLZRadio/status/1741347524693127398 > Just as it is clear that the [Israeli] right wing was right, today everyone says it is clear all Gazans must be annihilated" -- MK Moshe Saada, https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1742490421396119828 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17424904213961198... If killing 1000+ people is opening the gates of hell, what is killing 20k+ people and setting 500k+ on the course to die of famine or disease? Opening the gates of the Underverse? That's all Lord of the Flies nonsense. In reality, the terrorists of Hamas are responsible for their terrorism, and IDF and Isreali government for their crimes against humanity. One doesn't excuse the other, that's not how it even remotely works. That's only how you whip up people into actions they cannot justify and that cost them dearly.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
> back to eye for an eye. One thing that's missed about the whole "eye for an eye" thing, is that at the time, it was a step forward from the status quo. A way to prevent a lost eye becoming a lost arm becoming a lost life, becoming 3 lost lives and so on. Now it's become a by-word for barbarity, but it was state of the art of civilization at one point, thousands of years ago. And sadly, if 'eye for an eye' was the rule followed in the current conflict, there would be less criticism of the Israeli government's response, as there'd be a lot less dead people.

by krapp 3y ago

somewhereoutth 3y ago

How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Hamas was never imposed on the Palestinian people, of which a sizable proportion support the elimination of Israel ("from the river to the sea"). Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds.

Qem 3y ago
> How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Stopping blowing kids to pieces through indiscriminate air raids and ending apartheid would be a good start. That will cause a big recruitment problem for Hamas. Perhaps if people are given a bare minimum of dignity, if they have something to lose, I don't think they could be easily motivated to rush tanks by foot with handheld IEDs like in Saving Private Ryan.
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  Agreed that indiscriminate air raids are both militarily ineffective and terrible for civilians. But it is so easy to reach for them against an enemy without proper air defenses, as the chance of your own casualties is very low. It is also NATO/US doctrine - establish air superiority and then explode everything vaguely threatening.
krapp 3y ago
>Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds. So when Hamas kills indiscriminately, it's evil, but when Israel does it, it's simply necessary?
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  Hamas opened the gates of hell, awfully hard to prevent what happens next. Imagine if the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas (again) - how could a similarly overwhelming response be avoided?
  - krapp 3y ago
    If the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas, indiscriminately "opening the gates of hell" on Mexican civilians would not be justifiable. A similarly overwhelming response could be avoided because we are human beings, not demons driven only by an insatiable lust for vengeance and blood. I think I'm done with this conversation. Good night.
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    Opening the gates of hell is not an actual thing. And the comparison with Mexico falls flat because the US isn't run by a government working hand in hand with religious zealots who talk about how Mexico actually belongs to them, and if they can just drive out or kill all people there, they could move there. > "In the context of de-legitimization - Hamas is an asset (for Israel) and the Palestinian Authority is a liability" -- Smotrich, https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1741196470399783296 https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1741196470399783296 > If we act strategically correctly, there will be immigration and we will live in the Gaza Strip. We will not allow a situation where 2 million people live there. If there are 100-200 thousand Arabs in Gaza, all the talk about the day after will be different. They want to leave, they have been living in the ghetto for 75 years and are in need" -- also Smotrich, https://twitter.com/GLZRadio/status/1741347524693127398 https://twitter.com/GLZRadio/status/1741347524693127398 > Just as it is clear that the [Israeli] right wing was right, today everyone says it is clear all Gazans must be annihilated" -- MK Moshe Saada, https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1742490421396119828 https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/17424904213961198... If killing 1000+ people is opening the gates of hell, what is killing 20k+ people and setting 500k+ on the course to die of famine or disease? Opening the gates of the Underverse? That's all Lord of the Flies nonsense. In reality, the terrorists of Hamas are responsible for their terrorism, and IDF and Isreali government for their crimes against humanity. One doesn't excuse the other, that's not how it even remotely works. That's only how you whip up people into actions they cannot justify and that cost them dearly.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

> back to eye for an eye. One thing that's missed about the whole "eye for an eye" thing, is that at the time, it was a step forward from the status quo. A way to prevent a lost eye becoming a lost arm becoming a lost life, becoming 3 lost lives and so on. Now it's become a by-word for barbarity, but it was state of the art of civilization at one point, thousands of years ago. And sadly, if 'eye for an eye' was the rule followed in the current conflict, there would be less criticism of the Israeli government's response, as there'd be a lot less dead people.