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> Amid concerns about climate change, demand for rail service is strong This attempt at spinning it as people being motivated to use trains out of concern for

> Amid concerns about climate change, demand for rail service is strong This attempt at spinning it as people being motivated to use trains out of concern for the climate is hilarious. Almost nobody thinks like that. Trains are just a hell of a lot more convenient than alternative modes of transport for long distance trips.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ikesau 3y ago
The article is citing Alberto Mazzola, the executive director of the CER. He says that reduced emissions and price are driving the rise in demand. Clearly he's not impartial here, but I'd trust him to be forthright about these reasons.
- GrumpySloth 3y ago
  I can see reduced prices driving the demand. I doubt about the reduced emissions part. Why should I believe that that’s what’s driving people? To me it just sounds like a marketing spin. Don’t get me wrong: it’s cool that people are choosing a cleaner means of transport, but I doubt this is the reason.
tompagenet2 3y ago
I'm sure there are a mix of reasons. It's definitely significant for us and as we went to Cornwall this year we spoke to people on the way there and way back who offered this without promting for why they took the train. Different people may choose trains for a mix of different reasons.
kristiandupont 3y ago
>Almost nobody thinks like that. I have no data but I personally think like that and I have had conversations with friends who think like that. Why do you think demand is increasing then -- the convenience you mention isn't new?
- GrumpySloth 3y ago
  The convenience is very much new. 15 years ago in Poland it was completely normal for a train to have multi-hour delays. Now it’s not, and the trains are getting a lot faster. E.g. currently it takes 2h-2h 22m to go from Warsaw to Gdańsk. In 2016 it used to take 3h. 15-20 years ago it could take half a day or longer.
pvg 3y ago
Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- GrumpySloth 3y ago
  This point is repeated many times throughout the article. It’s not picking, unless you mean I should ignore half the article.
  - pvg 3y ago
    That may be but pasting a quote of a quote just to do some contentless sneering is exactly the sort of comment the guideline is about.
mondaymusings 3y ago
I have avoided flying and instead used trains for the last 10 years due to climate concerns. I know plenty of people who have made the same change in behaviour and my experience from the public debate in the nordic countries is that such a behaviour shift has grown more common among consumers in general. I found no study on consumer preferences on this topic that covers all of Europe but to get started here are two reports on single country surveys, in Portugal and Germany. https://www.eib.org/en/press/all/2021-389-91-of-portuguese-people-are-willing-to-replace-short-distance-flights-by-fast-low-polluting-trains https://www.eib.org/en/press/all/2021-389-91-of-portuguese-p... https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200128-why-germans-are-flying-less https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200128-why-germans-ar... Do you know of some survey evidence that points in the other direction?
- GrumpySloth 3y ago
  Your second link also gives an alternative explanation of people being motivated economically, not environmentally. And quote from the first link: > 91% say they want to replace short-distance flights by fast, low-polluting trains in collaboration with neighbouring countries See how a train being fast was bundled into the question. Let’s forget about environment for a moment. Going by plane is a lot less convenient, when you can take a train, due to needing to show up a lot earlier at the airport, going through security and all kinds of overhead. So when trains work, i.e. they’re fast, reliable and affordable, nobody needs environmental concerns to use them. For me to be convinced that someone is taking a train for environmental reasons, the train would need to be more expensive for them than going by plane. Because otherwise everyone likes to see themselves in a good light and say how much their choices are dictated by ethics, when in reality the wallet is often a more potent motivator than environmental concerns. Just like every employer likes to say that they hire and promote based on merit, but then it turns out that on average taller people get hired and promoted more often. And the employers will still believe that they weren’t influenced by that. Just like travellers will overestimate the influence of environmental concerns on their choice of mode of transport. In both cases it’s because people like to see themselves in good light. And same way most of the people who say they’d prefer to buy products produced in fair worker conditions, won’t actually buy the products whose prices reflect that. Declarations are cheap. Particularly feel-good declarations.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ikesau 3y ago

The article is citing Alberto Mazzola, the executive director of the CER. He says that reduced emissions and price are driving the rise in demand. Clearly he's not impartial here, but I'd trust him to be forthright about these reasons.

GrumpySloth 3y ago
I can see reduced prices driving the demand. I doubt about the reduced emissions part. Why should I believe that that’s what’s driving people? To me it just sounds like a marketing spin. Don’t get me wrong: it’s cool that people are choosing a cleaner means of transport, but I doubt this is the reason.

tompagenet2 3y ago

I'm sure there are a mix of reasons. It's definitely significant for us and as we went to Cornwall this year we spoke to people on the way there and way back who offered this without promting for why they took the train. Different people may choose trains for a mix of different reasons.

kristiandupont 3y ago

>Almost nobody thinks like that. I have no data but I personally think like that and I have had conversations with friends who think like that. Why do you think demand is increasing then -- the convenience you mention isn't new?

GrumpySloth 3y ago
The convenience is very much new. 15 years ago in Poland it was completely normal for a train to have multi-hour delays. Now it’s not, and the trains are getting a lot faster. E.g. currently it takes 2h-2h 22m to go from Warsaw to Gdańsk. In 2016 it used to take 3h. 15-20 years ago it could take half a day or longer.

pvg 3y ago

Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

GrumpySloth 3y ago
This point is repeated many times throughout the article. It’s not picking, unless you mean I should ignore half the article.
- pvg 3y ago
  That may be but pasting a quote of a quote just to do some contentless sneering is exactly the sort of comment the guideline is about.

mondaymusings 3y ago

I have avoided flying and instead used trains for the last 10 years due to climate concerns. I know plenty of people who have made the same change in behaviour and my experience from the public debate in the nordic countries is that such a behaviour shift has grown more common among consumers in general. I found no study on consumer preferences on this topic that covers all of Europe but to get started here are two reports on single country surveys, in Portugal and Germany. https://www.eib.org/en/press/all/2021-389-91-of-portuguese-people-are-willing-to-replace-short-distance-flights-by-fast-low-polluting-trains https://www.eib.org/en/press/all/2021-389-91-of-portuguese-p... https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200128-why-germans-are-flying-less https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200128-why-germans-ar... Do you know of some survey evidence that points in the other direction?

GrumpySloth 3y ago
Your second link also gives an alternative explanation of people being motivated economically, not environmentally. And quote from the first link: > 91% say they want to replace short-distance flights by fast, low-polluting trains in collaboration with neighbouring countries See how a train being fast was bundled into the question. Let’s forget about environment for a moment. Going by plane is a lot less convenient, when you can take a train, due to needing to show up a lot earlier at the airport, going through security and all kinds of overhead. So when trains work, i.e. they’re fast, reliable and affordable, nobody needs environmental concerns to use them. For me to be convinced that someone is taking a train for environmental reasons, the train would need to be more expensive for them than going by plane. Because otherwise everyone likes to see themselves in a good light and say how much their choices are dictated by ethics, when in reality the wallet is often a more potent motivator than environmental concerns. Just like every employer likes to say that they hire and promote based on merit, but then it turns out that on average taller people get hired and promoted more often. And the employers will still believe that they weren’t influenced by that. Just like travellers will overestimate the influence of environmental concerns on their choice of mode of transport. In both cases it’s because people like to see themselves in good light. And same way most of the people who say they’d prefer to buy products produced in fair worker conditions, won’t actually buy the products whose prices reflect that. Declarations are cheap. Particularly feel-good declarations.