3 ms·

I think you make a great point. Still, the insidious way that Apple introduced iMessage is something right out of the "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" playbook tha

I think you make a great point. Still, the insidious way that Apple introduced iMessage is something right out of the "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" playbook that feels fundamentally wrong to me: 1. 15 years ago everyone in the US just used SMS to text between cell phones. 2. When iMessage came out, it wasn't like "Switch to iMessage!" Instead, it just was the default texting app you used with iPhone. So it replaced an existing, open standard with a closed one, but in a way where 99.9% of people didn't realize it. 3. In true "embrace, extend, extinguish" fashion, Apple added a lot of features to iMessage, but also didn't totally exclude Android users, but just made it seem to iOS users that when they got crappy photos or messages that randomly wouldn't deliver or crappy emoji responses "it was Android's fault". Everything about the iMessage tactics (including getting teens to bully other teens for an out-group bubble color) is from the worst part of "protect the monopoly" playbook. Almost regardless of the legal nuances, I'm shocked when I hear anyone's broken logic trying to defend what they've done from a consumer utility perspective. (One side note, yes, I fully know the situation outside the US isn't comparable due to the high cost of SMS in the late 00s in other countries that forced a migration to WhatsApp, etc. earlier. That still doesn't give Apple a break for their monopoly-preserving tactics in the US).

wharvle 3y ago
> including getting teens to bully other teens for an out-group bubble color Whose messages turn green or blue depending on protocol in use in a given (potentially group) thread in Apple's Messages? [EDIT] The up-and-down voting pattern suggests my point may not have come through: if you were trying to cause this, where would you place this indicator? On messages from the person with phone sending SMS, right? Apple places it on the iPhone user's messages that they send, to indicate what kind of message you've sent so you have some idea what the other end's experience will be, and why certain features may not appear in your UI (you don't need to see what kind of message is coming in—its capabilities are evident, whatever you see is the result of that message using whatever features it needed and could access) Is Apple unhappy that Android users feel excluded? I doubt it. Was this feature evidently designed to do that, on purpose? I mean, if so, they didn't do it very well. "Green bubble" became a thing, initially, because you'd add an Android users to a group text (actually iMessage) thread and it'd "green bubble" everyone else and make things work less-well. There had to be some kind of indicator so this wouldn't seem to happen just at random, and that was it—but the affordance pointedly does not single out who's responsible, indeed, in a group thread that starts out with mixed Android and iOS users, I'm not even sure how to tell who's a "green bubble" and who's a "blue bubble" (I suppose you'd tap each contact and see if iMessage-related features were available?)
mistrial9 3y ago
oh right - as if a Billion users are forced to use iMessage </sarc> edit an OS web browser tied to the base OS is not the same as an instant msg app on a phone. The OS Browser bundling is not at all comparable, by a long measure. Some context is needed on such a large situation. source: read direct testimony on the MSFT anti-trust case
- megaman821 3y ago
  Serious question. How do you text on an iPhone without using iMessage?
  - stevenjgarner 3y ago
    I predominantly use Google Voice, but there are a slew of other alternative iOS SMS apps.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    With SMS using the Messages app. iMessage is 100% optional and can be disabled.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    Settings -> Messages -> Tap the "iMessage" toggle so it's off. Don't even have to scroll to find it (at least on mine).
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Again, I don't understand why people try to defend Apple's shitty behavior here. As I said in my comment, I'm less arguing from the technical legal details and more from a "this is just shitty, monopolistic-preserving behavior that serves no benefit besides protecting a company's marketshare" perspective. Apple could trivially easily: 1. Allow better interoperability from 3rd party clients. All of Apple's "user security" arguments are complete and total BS given that iMessage already degrades to the most insecure method of communication if any messages (including group chats) contain a non-iMessage user. 2. Provide a compatible Android client for iMessage (like literally every other single message app out there). At the very least they could stop breaking other iMessage Android clients. 3. Make it easier to choose a text client on startup. 4. Support a more functional interoperability standard - which, thankfully, Apple has finally said they will do by supporting RCS, but only after it looked like they became wary that their blatant tactics would look too monopolistic from a regulatory perspective. There is just 0 user-centered rationale for defending Apple's behavior here.

wharvle 3y ago

> including getting teens to bully other teens for an out-group bubble color Whose messages turn green or blue depending on protocol in use in a given (potentially group) thread in Apple's Messages? [EDIT] The up-and-down voting pattern suggests my point may not have come through: if you were trying to cause this, where would you place this indicator? On messages from the person with phone sending SMS, right? Apple places it on the iPhone user's messages that they send, to indicate what kind of message you've sent so you have some idea what the other end's experience will be, and why certain features may not appear in your UI (you don't need to see what kind of message is coming in—its capabilities are evident, whatever you see is the result of that message using whatever features it needed and could access) Is Apple unhappy that Android users feel excluded? I doubt it. Was this feature evidently designed to do that, on purpose? I mean, if so, they didn't do it very well. "Green bubble" became a thing, initially, because you'd add an Android users to a group text (actually iMessage) thread and it'd "green bubble" everyone else and make things work less-well. There had to be some kind of indicator so this wouldn't seem to happen just at random, and that was it—but the affordance pointedly does not single out who's responsible, indeed, in a group thread that starts out with mixed Android and iOS users, I'm not even sure how to tell who's a "green bubble" and who's a "blue bubble" (I suppose you'd tap each contact and see if iMessage-related features were available?)

mistrial9 3y ago

oh right - as if a Billion users are forced to use iMessage </sarc> edit an OS web browser tied to the base OS is not the same as an instant msg app on a phone. The OS Browser bundling is not at all comparable, by a long measure. Some context is needed on such a large situation. source: read direct testimony on the MSFT anti-trust case

megaman821 3y ago
Serious question. How do you text on an iPhone without using iMessage?
- stevenjgarner 3y ago
  I predominantly use Google Voice, but there are a slew of other alternative iOS SMS apps.
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  With SMS using the Messages app. iMessage is 100% optional and can be disabled.
- wharvle 3y ago
  Settings -> Messages -> Tap the "iMessage" toggle so it's off. Don't even have to scroll to find it (at least on mine).
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Again, I don't understand why people try to defend Apple's shitty behavior here. As I said in my comment, I'm less arguing from the technical legal details and more from a "this is just shitty, monopolistic-preserving behavior that serves no benefit besides protecting a company's marketshare" perspective. Apple could trivially easily: 1. Allow better interoperability from 3rd party clients. All of Apple's "user security" arguments are complete and total BS given that iMessage already degrades to the most insecure method of communication if any messages (including group chats) contain a non-iMessage user. 2. Provide a compatible Android client for iMessage (like literally every other single message app out there). At the very least they could stop breaking other iMessage Android clients. 3. Make it easier to choose a text client on startup. 4. Support a more functional interoperability standard - which, thankfully, Apple has finally said they will do by supporting RCS, but only after it looked like they became wary that their blatant tactics would look too monopolistic from a regulatory perspective. There is just 0 user-centered rationale for defending Apple's behavior here.