3 ms·

Just built a separate international network, with its own separate system and tracks. The way Japan handles complexity is through redundancy. Japan runs both re

by enaaem 3y ago

Just built a separate international network, with its own separate system and tracks. The way Japan handles complexity is through redundancy. Japan runs both really old trains, hyper modern high speed rail and everything in between. Each system runs on separate tracks, are from different companies, and are not interconnected. This can be a lesson on how to run complex systems in general.

DrNosferatu 3y ago
Enaaem: It already works that way. The Iberic Peninsula has a different rail gauge from Central Europe, but - in parallel to Iberian Gauge - is building and expanding its TGV network, which is in the Central European gauge. So, a secondary network.
- porompompero 3y ago
  Thus was seen by many as a waste when built, but really it works better than in Germany in terms of quality of experience.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? > This can be a lesson on how to run complex systems in general. This sounds like cargo culting. Japan has great train system, it has to be because of separate gauges!
- throwup238 3y ago
  > Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? Jevon's paradox [1] probably. The most profitable part of the rail system will grow to crowd out and interfere with the rest. By keeping it different gauges, they all operate independent of each other's incentives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    I don't really see this dynamic working in rail. In Japan, many of the companies operate trains on two gauges. People read too much into this, it's mostly just historical reasons. Most slow Japanese rail has a quite narrow gauge which is less suitable for high speed trains. The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail. Having different gauges provides no real benefit. It's just that unifying gauges provides too little benefit to justify the massive investment required. I expect this to be the same for most other countries. (and for similar problems like different railway electrification systems within/across countries)
    - feitingen 3y ago
      > The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail. > Having different gauges provides no real benefit. The only place it would be beneficial to have the same gauge would be at stations, to have fewer, more flexibile platforms and smaller train stations.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        I can see other advantages like having same maintanence rail cars, emergency rail cars, ability to divert traffic in case of accidents. I guess there are even more such minor advantages.
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      >Having different gauges provides no real benefit Unless you live in the Europe of Napoleon or Hitler, when they were built. Then the benefit is huge and obvious. Imagine how much easier the life would had been for Ukranians if the Russian trains that transport heavy army stuff would operate by default in a different rail width
- enaaem 3y ago
  Because different countries might have different gauges. Japanese system is great not because they have different gauges, but because they don’t see it as a problem if there are different gauges. In general, Japan has many train companies that run on totally separate systems.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  Many of this tracks cross big cities. Doubling the rails in those places would need to demolish thousands of extant buildings
zirgs 3y ago
> Just built a separate international network, with its own separate system and tracks. This is what Rail Baltica is going to be. The Baltics are using the Russian gauge, but RB will be using the standard gauge. And it won't be connected to the existing railway system. So if it all works out - we'll finally have a high-speed rail line from Tallinn to Warsaw,
beAbU 3y ago
Just
panick21_ 3y ago
Do you know how politically complex it is to build a single high speed rail line? In one country? Its so mind blowing complex politically, its almost unfathomable. And even then often it only results in an upgrade of an existing line, rather then a new line. Building a whole new infrastructure from the ground up, would not only be absurdly expensive, it would also be absurdly impractical and take literally 50 years if it would ever happen. Yes, Japan is correct that sometimes, more separation is a good thing if your network can be simpler. But at the same time you can't just reverse that and then conclude that 'lets make everything as different as possible' and believe that's somehow going to turn into an efficient system. We can not just simply ignore 200 years of train history and evolution each countries system has. I'm all for learning from Japan, but we also can't and shouldn't just copy Japan.

by enaaem 3y ago

DrNosferatu 3y ago

Enaaem: It already works that way. The Iberic Peninsula has a different rail gauge from Central Europe, but - in parallel to Iberian Gauge - is building and expanding its TGV network, which is in the Central European gauge. So, a secondary network.

porompompero 3y ago
Thus was seen by many as a waste when built, but really it works better than in Germany in terms of quality of experience.

The_Colonel 3y ago

Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? > This can be a lesson on how to run complex systems in general. This sounds like cargo culting. Japan has great train system, it has to be because of separate gauges!

throwup238 3y ago
> Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? Jevon's paradox [1] probably. The most profitable part of the rail system will grow to crowd out and interfere with the rest. By keeping it different gauges, they all operate independent of each other's incentives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  I don't really see this dynamic working in rail. In Japan, many of the companies operate trains on two gauges. People read too much into this, it's mostly just historical reasons. Most slow Japanese rail has a quite narrow gauge which is less suitable for high speed trains. The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail. Having different gauges provides no real benefit. It's just that unifying gauges provides too little benefit to justify the massive investment required. I expect this to be the same for most other countries. (and for similar problems like different railway electrification systems within/across countries)
  - feitingen 3y ago
    > The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail. > Having different gauges provides no real benefit. The only place it would be beneficial to have the same gauge would be at stations, to have fewer, more flexibile platforms and smaller train stations.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      I can see other advantages like having same maintanence rail cars, emergency rail cars, ability to divert traffic in case of accidents. I guess there are even more such minor advantages.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    >Having different gauges provides no real benefit Unless you live in the Europe of Napoleon or Hitler, when they were built. Then the benefit is huge and obvious. Imagine how much easier the life would had been for Ukranians if the Russian trains that transport heavy army stuff would operate by default in a different rail width
enaaem 3y ago
Because different countries might have different gauges. Japanese system is great not because they have different gauges, but because they don’t see it as a problem if there are different gauges. In general, Japan has many train companies that run on totally separate systems.
pvaldes 3y ago
Many of this tracks cross big cities. Doubling the rails in those places would need to demolish thousands of extant buildings

zirgs 3y ago

> Just built a separate international network, with its own separate system and tracks. This is what Rail Baltica is going to be. The Baltics are using the Russian gauge, but RB will be using the standard gauge. And it won't be connected to the existing railway system. So if it all works out - we'll finally have a high-speed rail line from Tallinn to Warsaw,

beAbU 3y ago

Just

panick21_ 3y ago

Do you know how politically complex it is to build a single high speed rail line? In one country? Its so mind blowing complex politically, its almost unfathomable. And even then often it only results in an upgrade of an existing line, rather then a new line. Building a whole new infrastructure from the ground up, would not only be absurdly expensive, it would also be absurdly impractical and take literally 50 years if it would ever happen. Yes, Japan is correct that sometimes, more separation is a good thing if your network can be simpler. But at the same time you can't just reverse that and then conclude that 'lets make everything as different as possible' and believe that's somehow going to turn into an efficient system. We can not just simply ignore 200 years of train history and evolution each countries system has. I'm all for learning from Japan, but we also can't and shouldn't just copy Japan.