4 ms·

There's a difference between obstructing (generally bad!) and refusal to deal (perfectly fine). Apple can't go out into the market and trip their competitors so

There's a difference between obstructing (generally bad!) and refusal to deal (perfectly fine). Apple can't go out into the market and trip their competitors so they fall on their face. However, they are allowed to build themselves a nice road for their exclusive use on their own hardware and a winding dirt path for everyone else. Put another way, Apple cannot worsen access for competitors on its platform absent a procompetitive justification. But they have no duty under U.S. antitrust law to provide equal access in the first place.

civilized 3y ago
My understanding is they also ban third-party text message applications, but I could be confused on the details.
- granzymes 3y ago
  If Apple in 2020 had allowed third-party text message applications and in 2024 changed their mind because a competitor was eating their lunch, that would be anticompetitive. It's not anticompetitive to never allow a third-party text message application in the first place.
  - civilized 3y ago
    I'm not aware of any requirement that anti-competitive behavior be in response to competitor behavior, but maybe you know more about the law.
- wharvle 3y ago
  For SMS? Maybe, but that's just a basic phone feature. An old Nokia also only offers one way to send SMS. It's just part of the phone-bits of the phone. And didn't Signal used to be able to send and receive SMS on iPhone, anyway? Thought it could. Messaging apps that compete with iMessage are plentiful and Apple doesn't get in their way. You can also disable iMessage with a toggle on the Messages settings screen (it's well "above the fold" for me, fourth entry down, on that screen, it's the first thing they show other than security/permissions stuff for the app)
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > And didn't Signal used to be able to send and receive SMS on iPhone, anyway? Thought it could. On Android, yes. Not on iOS.
    - wharvle 3y ago
      Oh, I thought they had it there too. Nevermind on that part then.
smoldesu 3y ago
> But they have no duty under U.S. antitrust law to provide equal access in the first place. True, but they're undeniably at a scale where this would just be expected of them either way. We broke up Ma Bell ignoring this exact defense, because at a certain scale of infrastructure you're expected to do the right thing legal or not. If Apple drills down on their "technically legal" defense, they're liable to find out how technically subjective law gets at their scale.
- granzymes 3y ago
  I agree that it's reasonable to hold platforms like Apple to a higher standard. The issue is that it would likely require new laws be passed, like the Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act from the European Union.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    That's not really an issue, as European lawmakers have demonstrated.

civilized 3y ago

My understanding is they also ban third-party text message applications, but I could be confused on the details.

granzymes 3y ago
If Apple in 2020 had allowed third-party text message applications and in 2024 changed their mind because a competitor was eating their lunch, that would be anticompetitive. It's not anticompetitive to never allow a third-party text message application in the first place.
- civilized 3y ago
  I'm not aware of any requirement that anti-competitive behavior be in response to competitor behavior, but maybe you know more about the law.
wharvle 3y ago
For SMS? Maybe, but that's just a basic phone feature. An old Nokia also only offers one way to send SMS. It's just part of the phone-bits of the phone. And didn't Signal used to be able to send and receive SMS on iPhone, anyway? Thought it could. Messaging apps that compete with iMessage are plentiful and Apple doesn't get in their way. You can also disable iMessage with a toggle on the Messages settings screen (it's well "above the fold" for me, fourth entry down, on that screen, it's the first thing they show other than security/permissions stuff for the app)
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > And didn't Signal used to be able to send and receive SMS on iPhone, anyway? Thought it could. On Android, yes. Not on iOS.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    Oh, I thought they had it there too. Nevermind on that part then.

smoldesu 3y ago

> But they have no duty under U.S. antitrust law to provide equal access in the first place. True, but they're undeniably at a scale where this would just be expected of them either way. We broke up Ma Bell ignoring this exact defense, because at a certain scale of infrastructure you're expected to do the right thing legal or not. If Apple drills down on their "technically legal" defense, they're liable to find out how technically subjective law gets at their scale.

granzymes 3y ago
I agree that it's reasonable to hold platforms like Apple to a higher standard. The issue is that it would likely require new laws be passed, like the Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act from the European Union.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  That's not really an issue, as European lawmakers have demonstrated.