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Hamas made the calculation that Israel's response to the atrocities of October 7th would be vengeful and unsubtle (and indeed it has been), and that world opini

Hamas made the calculation that Israel's response to the atrocities of October 7th would be vengeful and unsubtle (and indeed it has been), and that world opinion would reel Israel in before they could seriously degrade Hamas as an organisation. Is this what we want?

whatshisface 3y ago
If the extreme Israeli rightwing is collaborating with Hamas to use violence as a tool to legitimize them both I think that makes them enemies to the civilized world, not allies against the other of the two. (This goes for Hamas supporters as well.)
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  I have to agree with you, and this is deeply sad. I read an article about Netanyahu that suggested he views any viable Palestinian state as a security threat to Israel, and hence has been doing everything possible to stop that from happening, up to and including enabling Hamas (to discredit/disrupt the Palestinian Authority).
krapp 3y ago
I categorically reject the premise that giving Israel free rein to be as vengeful and unsubtle as they want is the only way they can degrade Hamas as an organization. If that's the case, then Hamas is perfectly justified in retaliating with equal violence against Israel. Either we hold modern societies, particularly our allies, up to standards of civilization or else we're back to eye for an eye. Yes, we want to reel Israel in before they can commit genocide regardless of whether it degrades Hamas as an organization because Palestinians are human beings, not orcs. "Just let them keep killing until the problem goes away" isn't supposed to be an acceptable policy position in modern societies. And it turns out it isn't - except to Israel, the US and Micronesian states which I assume are just vassals to the US.
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Hamas was never imposed on the Palestinian people, of which a sizable proportion support the elimination of Israel ("from the river to the sea"). Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds.
  - Qem 3y ago
    > How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Stopping blowing kids to pieces through indiscriminate air raids and ending apartheid would be a good start. That will cause a big recruitment problem for Hamas. Perhaps if people are given a bare minimum of dignity, if they have something to lose, I don't think they could be easily motivated to rush tanks by foot with handheld IEDs like in Saving Private Ryan.
    - somewhereoutth 3y ago
      Agreed that indiscriminate air raids are both militarily ineffective and terrible for civilians. But it is so easy to reach for them against an enemy without proper air defenses, as the chance of your own casualties is very low. It is also NATO/US doctrine - establish air superiority and then explode everything vaguely threatening.
  - krapp 3y ago
    >Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds. So when Hamas kills indiscriminately, it's evil, but when Israel does it, it's simply necessary?
    - somewhereoutth 3y ago
      Hamas opened the gates of hell, awfully hard to prevent what happens next. Imagine if the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas (again) - how could a similarly overwhelming response be avoided?

whatshisface 3y ago

If the extreme Israeli rightwing is collaborating with Hamas to use violence as a tool to legitimize them both I think that makes them enemies to the civilized world, not allies against the other of the two. (This goes for Hamas supporters as well.)

somewhereoutth 3y ago
I have to agree with you, and this is deeply sad. I read an article about Netanyahu that suggested he views any viable Palestinian state as a security threat to Israel, and hence has been doing everything possible to stop that from happening, up to and including enabling Hamas (to discredit/disrupt the Palestinian Authority).

krapp 3y ago

I categorically reject the premise that giving Israel free rein to be as vengeful and unsubtle as they want is the only way they can degrade Hamas as an organization. If that's the case, then Hamas is perfectly justified in retaliating with equal violence against Israel. Either we hold modern societies, particularly our allies, up to standards of civilization or else we're back to eye for an eye. Yes, we want to reel Israel in before they can commit genocide regardless of whether it degrades Hamas as an organization because Palestinians are human beings, not orcs. "Just let them keep killing until the problem goes away" isn't supposed to be an acceptable policy position in modern societies. And it turns out it isn't - except to Israel, the US and Micronesian states which I assume are just vassals to the US.

somewhereoutth 3y ago
How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Hamas was never imposed on the Palestinian people, of which a sizable proportion support the elimination of Israel ("from the river to the sea"). Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds.
- Qem 3y ago
  > How else do you suggest we destroy Hamas, given that they've already said they'd do October 7th again as soon as they can? Stopping blowing kids to pieces through indiscriminate air raids and ending apartheid would be a good start. That will cause a big recruitment problem for Hamas. Perhaps if people are given a bare minimum of dignity, if they have something to lose, I don't think they could be easily motivated to rush tanks by foot with handheld IEDs like in Saving Private Ryan.
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Agreed that indiscriminate air raids are both militarily ineffective and terrible for civilians. But it is so easy to reach for them against an enemy without proper air defenses, as the chance of your own casualties is very low. It is also NATO/US doctrine - establish air superiority and then explode everything vaguely threatening.
- krapp 3y ago
  >Maybe the horror of the calamity befalling them might concentrate some minds. So when Hamas kills indiscriminately, it's evil, but when Israel does it, it's simply necessary?
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Hamas opened the gates of hell, awfully hard to prevent what happens next. Imagine if the Mexican army went on a rampage through Texas (again) - how could a similarly overwhelming response be avoided?