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This is literally a joke on the excellent board game “Space Alert” - someone has to wiggle a mouse every so often or everything on your Sitting Duck Class Explo

This is literally a joke on the excellent board game “Space Alert” - someone has to wiggle a mouse every so often or everything on your Sitting Duck Class Explorer turns off.

zacharycohn 3y ago
Technically the screen saver/lock screen comes on and someone has log back in before anyone can take any actions.
operatingthetan 3y ago
This is a real thing in modern trains: >The device sounds a warning after 25 seconds of inactivity by an engineer. If the engineer fails to respond to the warning tone within 15 seconds, the system applies the brakes and stops the train. https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Alerter-system-prevents-engineers-from-falling-6264901.php https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Alerter-system-preve...
- foooorsyth 3y ago
  Dead man’s (safety) switch
- david422 3y ago
  Ok, I don't know much about trains, but it seems like if they can build this kind of system then they could also build a system that only allows trains to go as fast as track "speed limits".
  - TylerE 3y ago
    They have. There's only so much you can do. Crew have been known to throw breakers to disable systems they find "annoying".
  - ygra 3y ago
    They do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punktf%C3%B6rmige_Zugbeeinflussung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punktf%C3%B6rmige_Zugbeeinflus...
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    That's pretty much standard on European high speed trains, and many lines at slower speeds.
- tgv 3y ago
  Except that's the complete opposite.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    depends whether you consider trains rudimentary sentients or not. If the train fails to follow procedure to alert the gut bacteria/engineer every so many minutes, the train runs a higher risk of running into something because the engineer is asleep or incapacitated.
- ranting-moth 3y ago
  Back in they day sailors would stick a lit fag between their fingers when they were sailing home from day of fishing.
- jerf 3y ago
  That's still prompt -> response. This is a discussion about mandatory responses to no prompt at all. Although on reflection, that undersells the level of stupidity being proposed here. The pilots need to not only respond to no prompt, but be actively monitoring a condition changing state so that they can then perform the unprompted action. So, in all seriousness... by what algorithm are the pilots performing this assessment that is not something a computer can perform? How on Earth is it not cheaper and faster to add that to the system than petition a government agency for an exemption? What are all the computers on a plane even for other than monitoring state changes and performing actions in response? Even high-assurance, safety-critical coding should be able to outpace a Federal bureaucracy on something like this comfortably.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    Yes it's different, but similar to the comment I replied to in the sense that the machine just turns off if the user is idle for a time.
  - vitiral 3y ago
    I agree, but you underestimate the cost of software in "safety critical" applications. I've heard stories of cases where development orgs were given the option of changing a line of code or re designing the hardware. They of course redesigned the hardware.
  - nostrademons 3y ago
    Boeing is no longer capable of building safe planes. If you are no longer capable of building safe planes, your next best option is to petition the government to accept unsafe planes.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      That's only the next best option in the very short term. Boeing will suffer significant damage if there's another Max fiasco - more than they did from the first one. Probably much more. If your company can't build safe planes, the real "next best option" is to fix your company.
- kergonath 3y ago
  Even in not-so-modern trains. At least here, a dead man button or pedal has been mandatory on trains that could have a single driver since 1942.
- midasuni 3y ago
  If the user fails the train stops. If the use fails the plane crashes. Two very different problems.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    I was responding to a comment about a board game, I did not compare a train to a plane.
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  This is too ensure that the driver is still there and hopefully watching. If they do not react then it means they are not fully abled. So the train stops. This is very good. The correct analogy would have been: if the driver did not press the button then the train accelerates until they do. Not good.
  - patmorgan23 3y ago
    Or even more accurately the engine explodes and the entire train derails it's self.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    I made no analogy.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  And in large ships, the Bridge Navigational Watch Alarm System or BNWAS. Over night most normal operations cease, so it's quiet on the bridge. But an officer is on duty to keep watch, because the ship is still moving, often relatively fast, and it needs a human to obey pre-existing route plan decisions, observe changing conditions, stay alert to other vessels and so on. However, the bridge (on a modern large ship) is warm and dark and at night tired humans in warm dark rooms will sleep. So BNWAS will (if operating correctly) periodically need to be "nudged" to show that the officer on watch is awake and somewhat paying attention. If they do nothing for a while the BNWAS will alert them and if they ignore that it will eventually alarm critical crew, often the Master ("Captain") of the ship or other senior officers who are asleep in their cabins. Now of course nobody wants to leave a nice dream to discover that instead of your teenage girlfriend agreeing to go on that picnic you never got to that sound is their boss, very angrily demanding to know what the fuck you're doing curled up by the radar console. So unfortunately sometimes after a serious incident (e.g. cargo ship has "decided" to wait right next to a small island a few miles from the usual route from 4am until midday, and then when it gets to a dock it seems very smashed up at the bottom as though it was grounded and had to wait until higher tides lifted it clear...) we find the BNWAS has been disabled crudely (it's not as though ship's crew tend to be IT experts)... But this is a completely different scenario. The BNWAS is not something which causes a disaster if you forget to react, it's an alarm to prevent such disasters which would otherwise be commonplace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_navigational_watch_alarm_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_navigational_watch_alar...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rswail 3y ago
  Trains have had a deadman switch for literally centuries now.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Like the "the button" in the TV series Lost

This is literally a joke on the excellent board game “Space Alert” - someone has to wiggle a mouse every so often or everything on your Sitting Duck Class Explorer turns off.

zacharycohn 3y ago

Technically the screen saver/lock screen comes on and someone has log back in before anyone can take any actions.

operatingthetan 3y ago

This is a real thing in modern trains: >The device sounds a warning after 25 seconds of inactivity by an engineer. If the engineer fails to respond to the warning tone within 15 seconds, the system applies the brakes and stops the train. https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Alerter-system-prevents-engineers-from-falling-6264901.php https://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Alerter-system-preve...

foooorsyth 3y ago
Dead man’s (safety) switch
david422 3y ago
Ok, I don't know much about trains, but it seems like if they can build this kind of system then they could also build a system that only allows trains to go as fast as track "speed limits".
- TylerE 3y ago
  They have. There's only so much you can do. Crew have been known to throw breakers to disable systems they find "annoying".
- ygra 3y ago
  They do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punktf%C3%B6rmige_Zugbeeinflussung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punktf%C3%B6rmige_Zugbeeinflus...
- Symbiote 3y ago
  That's pretty much standard on European high speed trains, and many lines at slower speeds.
tgv 3y ago
Except that's the complete opposite.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  depends whether you consider trains rudimentary sentients or not. If the train fails to follow procedure to alert the gut bacteria/engineer every so many minutes, the train runs a higher risk of running into something because the engineer is asleep or incapacitated.
ranting-moth 3y ago
Back in they day sailors would stick a lit fag between their fingers when they were sailing home from day of fishing.
jerf 3y ago
That's still prompt -> response. This is a discussion about mandatory responses to no prompt at all. Although on reflection, that undersells the level of stupidity being proposed here. The pilots need to not only respond to no prompt, but be actively monitoring a condition changing state so that they can then perform the unprompted action. So, in all seriousness... by what algorithm are the pilots performing this assessment that is not something a computer can perform? How on Earth is it not cheaper and faster to add that to the system than petition a government agency for an exemption? What are all the computers on a plane even for other than monitoring state changes and performing actions in response? Even high-assurance, safety-critical coding should be able to outpace a Federal bureaucracy on something like this comfortably.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  Yes it's different, but similar to the comment I replied to in the sense that the machine just turns off if the user is idle for a time.
- vitiral 3y ago
  I agree, but you underestimate the cost of software in "safety critical" applications. I've heard stories of cases where development orgs were given the option of changing a line of code or re designing the hardware. They of course redesigned the hardware.
- nostrademons 3y ago
  Boeing is no longer capable of building safe planes. If you are no longer capable of building safe planes, your next best option is to petition the government to accept unsafe planes.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    That's only the next best option in the very short term. Boeing will suffer significant damage if there's another Max fiasco - more than they did from the first one. Probably much more. If your company can't build safe planes, the real "next best option" is to fix your company.
kergonath 3y ago
Even in not-so-modern trains. At least here, a dead man button or pedal has been mandatory on trains that could have a single driver since 1942.
midasuni 3y ago
If the user fails the train stops. If the use fails the plane crashes. Two very different problems.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  I was responding to a comment about a board game, I did not compare a train to a plane.
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
This is too ensure that the driver is still there and hopefully watching. If they do not react then it means they are not fully abled. So the train stops. This is very good. The correct analogy would have been: if the driver did not press the button then the train accelerates until they do. Not good.
- patmorgan23 3y ago
  Or even more accurately the engine explodes and the entire train derails it's self.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  I made no analogy.
tialaramex 3y ago
And in large ships, the Bridge Navigational Watch Alarm System or BNWAS. Over night most normal operations cease, so it's quiet on the bridge. But an officer is on duty to keep watch, because the ship is still moving, often relatively fast, and it needs a human to obey pre-existing route plan decisions, observe changing conditions, stay alert to other vessels and so on. However, the bridge (on a modern large ship) is warm and dark and at night tired humans in warm dark rooms will sleep. So BNWAS will (if operating correctly) periodically need to be "nudged" to show that the officer on watch is awake and somewhat paying attention. If they do nothing for a while the BNWAS will alert them and if they ignore that it will eventually alarm critical crew, often the Master ("Captain") of the ship or other senior officers who are asleep in their cabins. Now of course nobody wants to leave a nice dream to discover that instead of your teenage girlfriend agreeing to go on that picnic you never got to that sound is their boss, very angrily demanding to know what the fuck you're doing curled up by the radar console. So unfortunately sometimes after a serious incident (e.g. cargo ship has "decided" to wait right next to a small island a few miles from the usual route from 4am until midday, and then when it gets to a dock it seems very smashed up at the bottom as though it was grounded and had to wait until higher tides lifted it clear...) we find the BNWAS has been disabled crudely (it's not as though ship's crew tend to be IT experts)... But this is a completely different scenario. The BNWAS is not something which causes a disaster if you forget to react, it's an alarm to prevent such disasters which would otherwise be commonplace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_navigational_watch_alarm_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_navigational_watch_alar...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rswail 3y ago
Trains have had a deadman switch for literally centuries now.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Like the "the button" in the TV series Lost