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I would not trust the statistics, Firefox blocks tracking cookies by default. The statistics in the article come from companies that use 3rd party tracking cook

I would not trust the statistics, Firefox blocks tracking cookies by default. The statistics in the article come from companies that use 3rd party tracking cookies. > By default, Firefox blocks the cookies that track your browsing activity across multiple websites. This includes cross-site tracking cookies set by ad, social media, and analytics companies https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/trackers-and-scripts-firefox-blocks-enhanced-track https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/trackers-and-scripts-fi...

yorwba 3y ago
You don't need tracking cookies to find out what browser someone is using. Looking at the user agent string is mostly enough. (On the bright side, "Mozilla/5.0" has near 100% market share.)
zamadatix 3y ago
I don't think this affects these statistics much. Statcounter numbers are based on pageviews for example, and Firefox hasn't given up on having its own UA yet. The numbers also align too well with the internal stats to be blanketly ignored https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity where MAU is 180,000,000/~5,000,000. That's a different approach to calculating usage share than page views from an internal source and external source that come to about the same number.
- fsflover 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531261
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    Whether the numbers from Google Analytics can be assumed accurate on its own is unrelated to the above, as are any of the other tracking protections Firefox currently employs.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  Correction: 180,000,000/~5,000,000,000
slig 3y ago
See Cloudflare Radar [1] stats which do not use JavaScript/Cookies for tracking browser usage. [1]: https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  How does that keep track? If it's calls to cloudflareinsights.com, I suspect a very large proportion of Firefox users will block it through uBO + tracker lists or other means.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    Significant portions of the web are hidden behind Cloudflare's CDN who terminate TLS and therefore have access to plaintext traffic. They can just observe User-Agent headers on every request to any CF-protected website.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      I'm not all that interested in what Cloudflare can do. I was asking about how Cloudflare Radar does work.
      - dns_snek 3y ago
        That's exactly it. > Cloudflare's unique understanding of the Internet comes from it's global network – one of the world's largest, spanning 270+ cities in 100+ countries [...] Cloudflare is used as a reverse proxy by nearly 20% of all websites.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Desktop sum = Chrome + Edge + Firefox + Safari = 39.4% Firefox share = 4.2 / 39.4 = 10.7% That's significantly higher than other reported figures.
chrismorgan 3y ago
On Firefox’s Enhanced Tracking Protection, note that it’s actually two different things, and the default doesn’t shield you from most of these stat-collection sources. I wrote more about that at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38532931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38532931. Firefox is still going to be chronically undercounted, but unfortunately I don’t think the difference is enough to materially affect the narrative. Maybe a true measurement would boost the US DAP figures as much as from 2.2% to 2.5% (maybe), but it’s very unlikely to be reaching even 3%, in my assessment. (Notwithstanding this, https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget?location=us https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget?locatio... with its probably-more-reliable methodology does put Firefox at 4.5% for the USA, and https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget at 4.1% for the world.)
- sakjur 3y ago
  Cloudflare’s stats also put mobile traffic and desktop traffic from the main browsers (assuming Edge and Firefox are for their desktop versions) at roughly equal 46%, causing Firefox to jump to ~9-10% of the desktop browser market. That really isn’t bad imho.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    Unfortunately Firefox has an absolutely dismal mobile usage share to the point it doesn't much matter if the number is for both or just the desktop version since it's still about 4% combined either way. E.g. Statcounter puts Firefox at 7.46% of Desktop browser share and 0.5% on mobile for an overall 3.43% share. Based on the stats of other browsers on mobile vs desktop it seems there are two drivers for this. One is iOS Safari is extremely popular for users with those devices. On Android Chrom* browsers are extremely popular, even moreso than desktop though. For a long time the Android version of Firefox was held back on a legacy engine vs the desktop version and it'd chew through battery while having bad performance on top of compatibility issues due to the desktop version getting less popular as well. Then when they released the updated version it lacked many of the more niche things like arbitrary extension support for years that would have made it worth switching to. It's better now, but the damage was done and people are happy enough with the other browsers they've installed and been using for years at this point. I'd say Chrome being the default is the main factor and that explains both iOS and Android except it doesn't explain Firefox mobile being lower than so many other non-default browsers as well. Plus Chrome still manages to be decently popular on iOS, even if Safari is king there.

yorwba 3y ago

You don't need tracking cookies to find out what browser someone is using. Looking at the user agent string is mostly enough. (On the bright side, "Mozilla/5.0" has near 100% market share.)

zamadatix 3y ago

I don't think this affects these statistics much. Statcounter numbers are based on pageviews for example, and Firefox hasn't given up on having its own UA yet. The numbers also align too well with the internal stats to be blanketly ignored https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity where MAU is 180,000,000/~5,000,000. That's a different approach to calculating usage share than page views from an internal source and external source that come to about the same number.

fsflover 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531261
- zamadatix 3y ago
  Whether the numbers from Google Analytics can be assumed accurate on its own is unrelated to the above, as are any of the other tracking protections Firefox currently employs.
zamadatix 3y ago
Correction: 180,000,000/~5,000,000,000

slig 3y ago

See Cloudflare Radar [1] stats which do not use JavaScript/Cookies for tracking browser usage. [1]: https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage

cassianoleal 3y ago
How does that keep track? If it's calls to cloudflareinsights.com, I suspect a very large proportion of Firefox users will block it through uBO + tracker lists or other means.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Significant portions of the web are hidden behind Cloudflare's CDN who terminate TLS and therefore have access to plaintext traffic. They can just observe User-Agent headers on every request to any CF-protected website.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    I'm not all that interested in what Cloudflare can do. I was asking about how Cloudflare Radar does work.
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      That's exactly it. > Cloudflare's unique understanding of the Internet comes from it's global network – one of the world's largest, spanning 270+ cities in 100+ countries [...] Cloudflare is used as a reverse proxy by nearly 20% of all websites.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dns_snek 3y ago
Desktop sum = Chrome + Edge + Firefox + Safari = 39.4% Firefox share = 4.2 / 39.4 = 10.7% That's significantly higher than other reported figures.

chrismorgan 3y ago

On Firefox’s Enhanced Tracking Protection, note that it’s actually two different things, and the default doesn’t shield you from most of these stat-collection sources. I wrote more about that at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38532931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38532931. Firefox is still going to be chronically undercounted, but unfortunately I don’t think the difference is enough to materially affect the narrative. Maybe a true measurement would boost the US DAP figures as much as from 2.2% to 2.5% (maybe), but it’s very unlikely to be reaching even 3%, in my assessment. (Notwithstanding this, https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget?location=us https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget?locatio... with its probably-more-reliable methodology does put Firefox at 4.5% for the USA, and https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget https://radar.cloudflare.com/embed/TopBrowsersWidget at 4.1% for the world.)

sakjur 3y ago
Cloudflare’s stats also put mobile traffic and desktop traffic from the main browsers (assuming Edge and Firefox are for their desktop versions) at roughly equal 46%, causing Firefox to jump to ~9-10% of the desktop browser market. That really isn’t bad imho.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  Unfortunately Firefox has an absolutely dismal mobile usage share to the point it doesn't much matter if the number is for both or just the desktop version since it's still about 4% combined either way. E.g. Statcounter puts Firefox at 7.46% of Desktop browser share and 0.5% on mobile for an overall 3.43% share. Based on the stats of other browsers on mobile vs desktop it seems there are two drivers for this. One is iOS Safari is extremely popular for users with those devices. On Android Chrom* browsers are extremely popular, even moreso than desktop though. For a long time the Android version of Firefox was held back on a legacy engine vs the desktop version and it'd chew through battery while having bad performance on top of compatibility issues due to the desktop version getting less popular as well. Then when they released the updated version it lacked many of the more niche things like arbitrary extension support for years that would have made it worth switching to. It's better now, but the damage was done and people are happy enough with the other browsers they've installed and been using for years at this point. I'd say Chrome being the default is the main factor and that explains both iOS and Android except it doesn't explain Firefox mobile being lower than so many other non-default browsers as well. Plus Chrome still manages to be decently popular on iOS, even if Safari is king there.