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Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one is the autosteer, FSD etc. which has gotten worse not better with subseque

Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one is the autosteer, FSD etc. which has gotten worse not better with subsequent releases. Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. LOL.

Hamuko 3y ago
>Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. They were also going to appreciate because Tesla cars would operate as autonomous robot taxis by end of 2020, and it wouldn't make sense to sell a car to a consumer for $35,000 when you could have it earning money 24/7 as a taxi.
- u320 3y ago
  It would make sense to sell it at that price if you had competitors. So Musk was essentially saying "we are going to create a monopoly and then milk the market for all it's worth". I found it weird that nobody criticised him for that back then.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    Well, the competitors in this case would've been taxi companies, not other car companies. The case was basically that for every $35k Model 3 that comes off the lot can be sold for a profit up to $35k, or be added to the robotaxi fleet where it can generate whatever revenue it can produce. For example, if every Model 3 could generate $5/h of profit, then running it 24/7/365 would be $44k.
    - sliken 3y ago
      I suspect 24/7 use of a tesla would consume most of it's useful life in 1 year. Also electricity isn't free so that's going to be a substantial code and likely several sets of tires.
anonporridge 3y ago
And yet, they overdeliver compared to everyone else. Tesla continues to trounce every other car manufacturer because despite the fact that us fanboys (and bitterboys) are regularly disappointed at underdelivering on the hype, they still produce the most compelling EV for the price when compared to everyone else. "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > they overdeliver compared to everyone else Tesla delivers. That’s above par for the current course. The problem is Musk’s antics create opportunity for competitors. If he could have the discipline he does with SpaceX, Tesla’s long-term prospects would be stronger.
  - borkyborkbork 3y ago
    Yea... their only real competitor is a single Chinese company (BYD).
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > their only real competitor is a single Chinese company (BYD) This is short sighted. Their threat profile from new entrants (whether de novo or legacy) is massive. Most people I know considering EVs are not prioritising Teslas. They haven’t ruled them out. But it’s an even comparison between the Tesla on the lot and whatever they need to put a deposit down on for delivery in a few months or even years.
- blastro 3y ago
  Shoot for the moon, if you miss, you'll enter low earth orbit and burn up in the atmosphere.
- stetrain 3y ago
  > And yet, they overdeliver compared to everyone else. Which means they could publicly promise to do better than everyone else and still meet those promises. So promising things that are unrealistic (ie Level 5 FSD 5 years ago) is an unforced error, an own-goal that could be avoided but they have chosen not to avoid this over and over.
wnevets 3y ago
> Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. LOL. Not only will they appreciate in value, Teslas will earn you money while you sleep. [1] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/ride-hailing-tesla-elon-musk https://futurism.com/the-byte/ride-hailing-tesla-elon-musk
- bigtex 3y ago
  I can't find the Telsa Network App on the Apple Store, can't you provide a link for me?
  - wnevets 3y ago
    Here it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil
xedeon 3y ago
> Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one... Isn't it illegal to overstate official EPA results? Maybe I'm missing something here. Moreover, this affects ALL 2024 model year battery electric vehicles. There is a 6-page document here that explains it: https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=55592&flag=1 https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=55592&fla... This was enacted in 2022 but goes into effect this year: This new policy is applicable to new testing for 2024 model year and later vehicles. It may be applied to new testing for 2023 model year vehicles. *Vehicles utilizing carry-over data may continue to use data generated under previous policy* for as long as the tests are valid (i.e., no changes to the vehicle requiring new MPGe/range testing are required). *Manufacturers who add a new configuration to a test group for 2024 and later must present new test results using this policy*, but existing data can still be used if it is representative".
itsoktocry 3y ago
>Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. Meanwhile, Teslas are some of the fastest depreciating cars on the market. And Trevor Milton is going to jail for four years. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/18/nikola-founder-trevor-milton-sentencing-fraud-charges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/18/nikola-founder-trevor-milton...
- xedeon 3y ago
  What does a new EPA testing methodology going into effect have to do with Nikola again? Comparing Trevor Milton to Elon Musk is also wild. I still vividly remember the Tesla short seller crowd praising Milton as a genius while declaring Elon as a charlatan. > "The entire infotainment system is a HTML 5 super computer," Milton said. "That's the standard language for computer programmers around the world, so using it let's us build our own chips. And HTML 5 is very secure. Every component is linked on the data network, all speaking the same language. It's not a bunch of separate systems that somehow still manage to communicate." - Trevor Milton Source: https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-of-the-new-nikola-hydrogen-electric-truck https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-...
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    >Comparing Trevor Milton to Elon Musk is also wild. Why is it "wild"? Milton is going to prison for, basically, lying about the functionality of their truck. It didn't work like he claimed it did, when he claimed it did. But it's not like they don't have a real truck or a real business; they are testing vehicles right now. Nikola still exists. They have trucks on the road. So why is that such a stretch to compare things he claimed to things Tesla has claimed? You can perhaps argue about the scale or severity of the different claims, but I'd say exaggerated range claims and full-self-driving are also pretty bad: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...
    - xedeon 3y ago
      Milton was sentenced to jail because he was found guilty of one count of securities fraud and two counts of wire fraud. That's why. Also, from your linked article: "One of the experts, [Gregory Pannone], co-authored a study of 21 different brands of electric vehicles, published in April by SAE International, an engineering organization. The research found that, on average, the cars fell short of their advertised ranges by 12.5% in highway driving. The study did not name the brands tested.." > The study did not name the brands tested.. I was curious why that is. So I did some digging and found this very reassuring info. I'm sure there's no bias right? [Gregory Pannone] -Sr. Engineer General Motors - Engineer/Intern Engineer/Intern BP p.l.c. British multinational oil and gas - FCA Fiat Chrysler Automobiles logo Head of Fuel Economy, Performance, and P/T Synthesis Chrysler LLC https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregory-pannone-3a414610/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregory-pannone-3a414610/
paul7986 3y ago
Musk oversells everything..he's like a used car salesman. One of a few reasons i won't be buying an EV anytime soon.
- callalex 3y ago
  An equivalent statement would be “I bought some pills from the guy on the street corner and they didn’t contain what he said they would, so I’m never going to the pharmacy ever again.”
sigio 3y ago
Promises notwithstanding, model 3 and Y are some of the most efficient EV's on the market, getting more mile/kwh (or less kwh/100km, or however you measure it) than their competitors. Don't have a tesla myself, (kia e-niro), but weather will have an enormous impact on range, did a ~400km loop last week, 200km up north, used only 14.7kwh/100km, and the 200km back used more than 21.7kwh/100km. (Tailwind vs headwind)
thelastgallon 3y ago
> Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. This may turn out to be true. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day[1], this is with Powerwalls, 13.5KWH capacity. Teslas have 80KWH+ capacity, equivalent of 6 powerwalls. Tesla's have a potential to make a decent amount of money from participating in VPP (Virtual Power Plants). Coupled with the $25/month plan[2], VPP participation will take advantage of cheap power when its available, supply power back to the grid when its extremely profitable. Will this work for everyone, no, it won't. Some people are fanatic about using fossil fuels. Will it work for a fraction of the people who might be interested in getting paid. It just might. [1] Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo... [2] With the Tesla Electric Home Charging Plan, you will: Pay a fixed fee of $25/month for vehicle charging sessions between 10 PM and 6 AM: https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-electric/vehicle https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-electric/vehicle

Hamuko 3y ago

>Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. They were also going to appreciate because Tesla cars would operate as autonomous robot taxis by end of 2020, and it wouldn't make sense to sell a car to a consumer for $35,000 when you could have it earning money 24/7 as a taxi.

u320 3y ago
It would make sense to sell it at that price if you had competitors. So Musk was essentially saying "we are going to create a monopoly and then milk the market for all it's worth". I found it weird that nobody criticised him for that back then.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  Well, the competitors in this case would've been taxi companies, not other car companies. The case was basically that for every $35k Model 3 that comes off the lot can be sold for a profit up to $35k, or be added to the robotaxi fleet where it can generate whatever revenue it can produce. For example, if every Model 3 could generate $5/h of profit, then running it 24/7/365 would be $44k.
  - sliken 3y ago
    I suspect 24/7 use of a tesla would consume most of it's useful life in 1 year. Also electricity isn't free so that's going to be a substantial code and likely several sets of tires.

anonporridge 3y ago

And yet, they overdeliver compared to everyone else. Tesla continues to trounce every other car manufacturer because despite the fact that us fanboys (and bitterboys) are regularly disappointed at underdelivering on the hype, they still produce the most compelling EV for the price when compared to everyone else. "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> they overdeliver compared to everyone else Tesla delivers. That’s above par for the current course. The problem is Musk’s antics create opportunity for competitors. If he could have the discipline he does with SpaceX, Tesla’s long-term prospects would be stronger.
- borkyborkbork 3y ago
  Yea... their only real competitor is a single Chinese company (BYD).
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > their only real competitor is a single Chinese company (BYD) This is short sighted. Their threat profile from new entrants (whether de novo or legacy) is massive. Most people I know considering EVs are not prioritising Teslas. They haven’t ruled them out. But it’s an even comparison between the Tesla on the lot and whatever they need to put a deposit down on for delivery in a few months or even years.
blastro 3y ago
Shoot for the moon, if you miss, you'll enter low earth orbit and burn up in the atmosphere.
stetrain 3y ago
> And yet, they overdeliver compared to everyone else. Which means they could publicly promise to do better than everyone else and still meet those promises. So promising things that are unrealistic (ie Level 5 FSD 5 years ago) is an unforced error, an own-goal that could be avoided but they have chosen not to avoid this over and over.

wnevets 3y ago

> Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. LOL. Not only will they appreciate in value, Teslas will earn you money while you sleep. [1] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/ride-hailing-tesla-elon-musk https://futurism.com/the-byte/ride-hailing-tesla-elon-musk

bigtex 3y ago
I can't find the Telsa Network App on the Apple Store, can't you provide a link for me?
- wnevets 3y ago
  Here it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

xedeon 3y ago

> Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one... Isn't it illegal to overstate official EPA results? Maybe I'm missing something here. Moreover, this affects ALL 2024 model year battery electric vehicles. There is a 6-page document here that explains it: https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=55592&flag=1 https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=55592&fla... This was enacted in 2022 but goes into effect this year: This new policy is applicable to new testing for 2024 model year and later vehicles. It may be applied to new testing for 2023 model year vehicles. *Vehicles utilizing carry-over data may continue to use data generated under previous policy* for as long as the tests are valid (i.e., no changes to the vehicle requiring new MPGe/range testing are required). *Manufacturers who add a new configuration to a test group for 2024 and later must present new test results using this policy*, but existing data can still be used if it is representative".

itsoktocry 3y ago

>Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. Meanwhile, Teslas are some of the fastest depreciating cars on the market. And Trevor Milton is going to jail for four years. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/18/nikola-founder-trevor-milton-sentencing-fraud-charges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/18/nikola-founder-trevor-milton...

xedeon 3y ago
What does a new EPA testing methodology going into effect have to do with Nikola again? Comparing Trevor Milton to Elon Musk is also wild. I still vividly remember the Tesla short seller crowd praising Milton as a genius while declaring Elon as a charlatan. > "The entire infotainment system is a HTML 5 super computer," Milton said. "That's the standard language for computer programmers around the world, so using it let's us build our own chips. And HTML 5 is very secure. Every component is linked on the data network, all speaking the same language. It's not a bunch of separate systems that somehow still manage to communicate." - Trevor Milton Source: https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-of-the-new-nikola-hydrogen-electric-truck https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-...
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >Comparing Trevor Milton to Elon Musk is also wild. Why is it "wild"? Milton is going to prison for, basically, lying about the functionality of their truck. It didn't work like he claimed it did, when he claimed it did. But it's not like they don't have a real truck or a real business; they are testing vehicles right now. Nikola still exists. They have trucks on the road. So why is that such a stretch to compare things he claimed to things Tesla has claimed? You can perhaps argue about the scale or severity of the different claims, but I'd say exaggerated range claims and full-self-driving are also pretty bad: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...
  - xedeon 3y ago
    Milton was sentenced to jail because he was found guilty of one count of securities fraud and two counts of wire fraud. That's why. Also, from your linked article: "One of the experts, [Gregory Pannone], co-authored a study of 21 different brands of electric vehicles, published in April by SAE International, an engineering organization. The research found that, on average, the cars fell short of their advertised ranges by 12.5% in highway driving. The study did not name the brands tested.." > The study did not name the brands tested.. I was curious why that is. So I did some digging and found this very reassuring info. I'm sure there's no bias right? [Gregory Pannone] -Sr. Engineer General Motors - Engineer/Intern Engineer/Intern BP p.l.c. British multinational oil and gas - FCA Fiat Chrysler Automobiles logo Head of Fuel Economy, Performance, and P/T Synthesis Chrysler LLC https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregory-pannone-3a414610/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregory-pannone-3a414610/

paul7986 3y ago

Musk oversells everything..he's like a used car salesman. One of a few reasons i won't be buying an EV anytime soon.

callalex 3y ago
An equivalent statement would be “I bought some pills from the guy on the street corner and they didn’t contain what he said they would, so I’m never going to the pharmacy ever again.”

sigio 3y ago

Promises notwithstanding, model 3 and Y are some of the most efficient EV's on the market, getting more mile/kwh (or less kwh/100km, or however you measure it) than their competitors. Don't have a tesla myself, (kia e-niro), but weather will have an enormous impact on range, did a ~400km loop last week, 200km up north, used only 14.7kwh/100km, and the 200km back used more than 21.7kwh/100km. (Tailwind vs headwind)

thelastgallon 3y ago

> Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. This may turn out to be true. Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day[1], this is with Powerwalls, 13.5KWH capacity. Teslas have 80KWH+ capacity, equivalent of 6 powerwalls. Tesla's have a potential to make a decent amount of money from participating in VPP (Virtual Power Plants). Coupled with the $25/month plan[2], VPP participation will take advantage of cheap power when its available, supply power back to the grid when its extremely profitable. Will this work for everyone, no, it won't. Some people are fanatic about using fossil fuels. Will it work for a fraction of the people who might be interested in getting paid. It just might. [1] Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day: https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-repo... [2] With the Tesla Electric Home Charging Plan, you will: Pay a fixed fee of $25/month for vehicle charging sessions between 10 PM and 6 AM: https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-electric/vehicle https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-electric/vehicle