6 ms·

Tesla Model Y range estimate reduced by 6%, becoming more realistic

32 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

samstave 3y ago
How does one "jump" a tesla - can a Tesla be used to jump-charge another tesla? One thing that would be kind of cool would be a slide-in Jump battery - a small battery cell that can be physically swapped between two teslas to give them N-miles range - so if your tesla dies, another tesla can swap this battery with you. (the charging priority is to the swappable suitcase battery) ((What if your nav would alert you while driving you EV that another car needs your power and is in vicinity/on-route-you-are-driving... if you jump them you get credits for whatever such credits can be used for - and another EV driver can "venmo" you credits for the jump -- or create an "uber" market for driving around credits - make a mobile charging semi. Like the aircraft refueling fleet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanker_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanker_aircraft )) These can be carried by AAA tows and swapped to get you going. It should be the floor of the FRUNK and lif out like a suitcase.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- stetrain 3y ago
  If you mean the 12V battery, same as any other car. If you mean using one Tesla to charge another when its main battery is empty, currently only the Cybertruck supports such power output. https://www.tesla.com/powershare https://www.tesla.com/powershare Some services like AAA do provide roadside charging via generator or battery pack onboard their service vehicles. Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places. I never ran out of gas either.
  - hangonhn 3y ago
    > Some services like AAA do provide roadside charging via generator or battery pack onboard their service vehicles. > Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places. I never ran out of gas either. I think that's true of a lot of drivers but I bet if EV makers threw in 5 years of AAA recharging for free it would alleviate a lot of range anxiety for first time EV buyers. It wouldn't even be that expensive for the EV makers since the actual incidences are probably pretty low.
  - samstave 3y ago
    >>>"Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places" Neither have i, but if the cybertruck is any dystopian-minded-MadMax types' "bug out vehicle" -- this is going to suck. The cybertruck should come with a built in generator that can consume gas to charge your thing? One can take a cybertruck-type vehicle out into the woods of Alaska, and carry a bunch of extra fuel, but you can't bring an additional 5,000 LBS of batteries... I' dont have the energy (pun intended) to do it, but it would seem that one could make a simple spreadsheet to compare miles per gallon to miles per battery weight, such that you know that if you get 20 miles per gallon and a gallon weighs 8 pounds, vs you get how much distance out of the EV per weight?
    - stetrain 3y ago
      Where will you find refined unexpired gasoline in your MadMax apocalypse? A pack of solar panels you can set out in your bug-out camping zone seems more feasible to me. No dependency on ongoing supply chains. Just look at how quickly gas shortages start when a hurricane is aimed at Florida. And Tesla does sell a bolt-in range extending battery pack for their truck for $16,000 https://insideevs.com/news/699262/tesla-cybertruck-range-externder-weight/ https://insideevs.com/news/699262/tesla-cybertruck-range-ext...
      - bombcar 3y ago
        > Where will you find refined unexpired gasoline in your MadMax apocalypse? You get vehicles that can burn expired gasoline (or more likely, diesel and diesel-like derivates in a multi-fuel engine). For true apocalypse you want to go back to steam engines, those can run on water and wood.
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        > A pack of solar panels you can set out in your bug-out camping zone seems more feasible to me. I wonder how big those would have to be to be practical.
        stetrain 3y ago
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    F150 Lightning also provides power output from its onboard big battery system
- anonporridge 3y ago
  Wow. That's actually a great idea. Perhaps Tesla maintains ownership of it so that you never have to worry about whether someone you're swapping with is unloading a bad battery on you. At a certain degradation, they just give you a new one. It's not even dead weight! Just extra battery capacity that's removable. Standardize the form factor and turn it into a uniform standard that every manufacturer can adopt.
  - stetrain 3y ago
    If you extrapolate this to the whole pack you get Nio's swappable battery system. I don't see this scaling out well especially with trying to get multiple manufacturers onboard with standard packs. Every EV can accept 120V or 240V power, and that can be obtained in a lot of ways including generators, portable battery packs, or inverters on ICE or EV vehicles. A 240V output from one vehicle and a standard charging cord seems like a more universal solution to me than moving 100lb battery packs around. https://ir.lucidmotors.com/news-releases/news-release-details/introducing-rangexchange-innovative-new-feature-enabling-lucid https://ir.lucidmotors.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...
    - anonporridge 3y ago
      Fully swappable batteries seems untenable for a number of reasons. a) It seems unlikely that you can standardize the battery form factor between different models. You'll still have a handful of different standards between small, full size, and truck/suvs, and semi truck forms. It's been hard enough getting manufacturers to standardize on a single charging port. Battery form standardization would be another order of magnitude hard. b) Even if you somehow manage to do it, you're forever stuck on that form. Limits the experimentation and flexibility you have to develop for new use cases. Upgrading battery tech, like Tesla's switch to the bigger and more efficient 4680 in the cybertruck, would also get added friction since it wouldn't be compatible with older standards. c) Tesla at least is starting to turn the battery pack into a structural element to reduce mass. Unlikely you can do this and be swappable at the same time.
      - 3y ago
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  With the Cybertruck, you can charge another EV with it it. And plugin some other equipment. Earlier Teslas don't have this. Apparently that's something that they are going to do more of going forward. Also, using your vehicle to power your home is becoming a popular use case. It's a big reason Ford's F-150 is so popular as well. And there are a few other cars that can do this. Anyway, the only way your battery would run out is if you willfully ignore all the helpful warnings and guidance to the nearest charger. Mostly people are smarter than that. There actually are a lot more cars getting stuck without petrol/diesel than EVs with dead batteries because EVs tend to give you more feedback on energy levels and usage. With a petrol car if you drive uphill or downhill, the indicated fuel levels actually change to be even less accurate than they normally are. When the needle hits zero, you might have 10 miles left or 20. Or just half a mile. Impossible to tell. That's how a lot of drivers get into trouble. The normal way to mitigate with both EVs and ICE cars is to just don't use the full range of the car and top up long before you get close to hitting zero. But if it does happen, then yes the solution is usually somebody with a portable battery driving up to you and giving you a few kwh; or just towing you to the nearest charger or power outlet. If that happens to you, you should feel a bit stupid and embarrassed for letting that happen. Absolutely no need for mitigating that. It's a problem you shouldn't have and the fix if you do is low cost and easy.
  - samstave 3y ago
    >>Mostly people are smarter than that. Now you listen hear - I am SO smart that I have designed these devices to do the thinking for me.
- Merad 3y ago
  It's a neat idea but I think you're really underestimating how large the battery would need to be to provide any useful range. I have a Toyota RAV4 hybrid whose battery only provides < 1 mile range and its battery is basically suitcase sized. I'm not having any luck finding dimensions or weight but you can get some sense of the size from the pics in this eBay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/266168009857 https://www.ebay.com/itm/266168009857
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The Tesla S "small" size battery is 57KwH. A MX FUEL™ REDLITHIUM™ FORGE™ HD12.0 is a bit below a KwH, and is 10x5x7 and weighs 13 pounds.
lgleason 3y ago
Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one is the autosteer, FSD etc. which has gotten worse not better with subsequent releases. Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. LOL.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  >Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. They were also going to appreciate because Tesla cars would operate as autonomous robot taxis by end of 2020, and it wouldn't make sense to sell a car to a consumer for $35,000 when you could have it earning money 24/7 as a taxi.
  - u320 3y ago
    It would make sense to sell it at that price if you had competitors. So Musk was essentially saying "we are going to create a monopoly and then milk the market for all it's worth". I found it weird that nobody criticised him for that back then.
    - Hamuko 3y ago
      Well, the competitors in this case would've been taxi companies, not other car companies. The case was basically that for every $35k Model 3 that comes off the lot can be sold for a profit up to $35k, or be added to the robotaxi fleet where it can generate whatever revenue it can produce. For example, if every Model 3 could generate $5/h of profit, then running it 24/7/365 would be $44k.
      - sliken 3y ago
        I suspect 24/7 use of a tesla would consume most of it's useful life in 1 year. Also electricity isn't free so that's going to be a substantial code and likely several sets of tires.
- anonporridge 3y ago
stetrain 3y ago
> In fact, nothing changed on the vehicles themselves, except the way range is now calculated. Specifically, the EPA now mandates that all EV manufacturers test acceleration and ride height modes in both best and worst-case scenarios. This makes almost all EVs lose range and efficiency, although the changes were introduced to better reflect real-world range performance. > The new system is applicable to vehicles testing for the 2024 model year and later. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-my2024-updates-less-range-new-colors-different-steering-wheels-and-no-creep-mode-227187.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-my2024-updates-less... This is a slight improvement but still EPA testing is both a poor match to actual road tripping (where people often care about EV range) and can be very inconsistent between vehicles due to the number of options automakers have in choosing which cycles they will test with and how they use those results. The EPA's standard "highway" driving cycle averages 48 mph. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/heres-how-the-epa-calculates-how-far-an-ev-can-go-on-a-full-charge/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/heres-how-the-epa-calcu...
- ajross 3y ago
  It's worth pointing out that the only international alternative to the EPA efficiency cycle for EVs is WLTP, which produces even more optimistic range numbers. We can't win. If you ask the average person on the street the right way to measure "EV range", they'd give you an answer (e.g. "drive like you do in the real world") that looks very much like what the EPA tests. If you ask that same person if their car goes as far as it claims, they'll say "no", because they're thinking about highway range at 75mph.
  - stetrain 3y ago
    My understanding is that WLPT is more consistent across manufacturers but as you say provides higher range numbers that won't match 70mph+ highway driving. ICE cars are rated in City MPG and Highway MPG, and both are displayed on the window sticker. The EPA does test and compute City and Highway efficiency for EVs but then distills this into one combined range number for the sticker. My suggestion would be to display separate City and Highway range figures for all EVs, adjust the Highway cycle to reflect 70mph highway driving, and combine all of the current options into a single set of test cycles that all manufacturers must use. The current situation where different manufacturers use different test cycles and adjustment factors doesn't seem good for consumers at all.
gwbas1c 3y ago
The longest I've gone on a single charge was ~270 miles in my Model 3 while it was under a year old. I don't remember how much range I had when I got home, but if I was going anywhere further I would have stopped to charge. The big issue that I have with range in my Model 3 is tires: I thought the tire shop was putting on the same tires that the car came with, but they didn't. My 2nd set of tires really killed the range. (I should have argued with the tire shop when I picked up the car, but I didn't.)
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Wheels and tires make a huge huge difference on the margin for cars that are already pretty efficient. But Tesla doesn't ship particularly efficient wheels and tires from the factory, do they? When I was shopping for them they seemed to universally ship all-season performance tires, not the kinds of efficiency tires you see on other EVs and hybrids. I assumed that they were doing that because the rest of their platform is already so much more efficient than others. The big wheel package available on my hybrid kills the MPG, and I am happier with the 16" wheels. But Tesla doesn't offer anything under 18" as I recall.
larrymyers 3y ago
I've owned a Model Y for about a year now, and range anxiety isn't a big deal on road trips as long as you're using the built in nav for your destination. The nav calculated estimations tend to be very accurate, within a few percent when it determines the battery remaining, and it'll add in supercharger stops as needed. I definitely have to stop more in the winter time on road trips, but that's just the nature of how EVs work. On the upside Tesla puts superchargers in spots that make it easy to take a break for a rest stop anyway. I do miss how quick gas station stops are with ICE cars when doing a road trip, especially if you're on a constrained schedule, but the benefits of having the EV have outweighed it so far, especially with most of my daily miles being in the city (where the EV really shines).
- cebert 3y ago
  Do you live in a warm state or a cold state? I live in Michigan and during the winter range is reduced considerably. This is fine for my local commute, but is quite painful when you want to drive “up North” to go skiing. There isn’t a lot of charging infrastructure and coupled with the reduced range, longer trips can be inconvenient.
  - larrymyers 3y ago
    Driving around the midwest in the winter time I find I get about 200 miles to the full charge. The cold weather, increased wind speeds, and need to run the heater all eat into the range substantially. I hear you about wanting to drive up north for outdoor winter sports. It requires a lot more planning once north of Grand Rapids to make sure you won't end up stranded. Many times I'll stop at a supercharger early just to take advantage of the battery heating the charging provides. That alone makes the rest of the trip more efficient, and I can get back below 300 wh/mi. The heated seats and steering wheel also make a big difference and allow the heat pump to not have to do so much work.
- paxys 3y ago
  This is key, because not every mile driven is the same. If you see "Model Y has a range of 300 miles" and set out to drive 300 miles you are going to have a problem. The temperature, wind speed/direction, humidity, pressure, cloud cover, altitude, uphill/downhill driving, vehicle weight, battery quality, tire tread, AC use, average speed... all make a huge difference. The nav system does take these into account and gives you a much more realistic number.
blindriver 3y ago
My maximum range on my 16 month old Model Y is down 10% from when I first purchased it. I don't know if that's "normal" but it sure feels like I got scammed, that's for sure.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Is that displayed range (including maybe software updates to change what is displayed) or is that "when I bought it, I could drive this far before it died" compared to "now I can't get that far"?
  - blindriver 3y ago
    Displayed range. If a software update changed what is displayed to be more accurate, that is equally as deceitful.
- wilg 3y ago
  Degradation is supposed to be 12% after 200,000 miles: https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradat... But, like all batteries they degrade fastest at the beginning. Not sure how typical your situation is. How many miles?
  - blindriver 3y ago
    25,000 miles.
- ankushnarula 3y ago
  My Model Y LR is roughly the same age (24K miles) and I lost about 8.5% capacity. Pretty sure this is the nature of current lithium battery tech, according to many Tesla owner reports. From what I have gathered, the loss rate will slow and gradually level out above 70% for much of the ten year battery warranty, as long as you follow Tesla’s guidance on battery health.
- zuccs 3y ago
  Some good fleet data: https://www.tessie.com/stats https://www.tessie.com/stats
OJFord 3y ago
It'd be nice if they just published real data, the median (& quartiles perhaps) range drivers are actually getting.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Gamify it, so you can compete with other drives to get better range/mileage!
- borkyborkbork 3y ago
  You can get 20%+ more mileage than EPA on a single charge when doing city driving. I consistently get 380 miles+ on my Model Y long range.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    AIUI they have all the data to break it down like that too?
z2 3y ago
Perhaps worth pointing out that the big direction depends on each jurisdiction's guidelines for claiming range. The EPA in the US and Canada seems closest to reality, while the long range version in Germany still shows 533km/331mi, Japan shows 605km/376mi while China has 688km/427mi.
alienicecream 3y ago
My diesel Mercedes SUV has a 900 km range and filling up takes 5 minutes, why would I ever buy an EV.
- borkyborkbork 3y ago
  Because I've gone 6 months with my EV charging only in my garage. I have never needed to go anywhere to "fill it up". Also, where I live I have to drive 15 minutes each way to do the 5 minute fill up. I am saving 35 minutes every week by not having to go somewhere to fill my gas.
  - alienicecream 3y ago
    Don't you need to have a 220V circuit put in? And if you go anywhere that's more than 120 miles away, now you have to plan for a charging stop and make sure there's one on your route right? With ICE I don't have to worry about any of that.
    - xedeon 3y ago
      > With ICE I don't have to worry about any of that. You don’t really do that with EVs either. The navigation system takes all of that into account, including live metrics such as temperature, wind, weather, and elevation. It takes the guesswork out of non-trivial tasks. The only valid issue is the poorly maintained Electrify America chargers for non-Tesla EVs. But that’s about to change in the U.S., since pretty much everyone is adopting the NACS/SAE J340 Standard. This will make them compatible with Tesla Superchargers. Apps like ABRP also exist, which are even compatible with level 2 charging: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
    - gergi137 3y ago
      I can add about 50 miles of range overnight on a standard 120V outlet which is more than enough most of the time. For longer trips back-to-back, a 220V circuit would be really nice to fully re-charge overnight but its absolutely not necessary.

32 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

How does one "jump" a tesla - can a Tesla be used to jump-charge another tesla? One thing that would be kind of cool would be a slide-in Jump battery - a small battery cell that can be physically swapped between two teslas to give them N-miles range - so if your tesla dies, another tesla can swap this battery with you. (the charging priority is to the swappable suitcase battery) ((What if your nav would alert you while driving you EV that another car needs your power and is in vicinity/on-route-you-are-driving... if you jump them you get credits for whatever such credits can be used for - and another EV driver can "venmo" you credits for the jump -- or create an "uber" market for driving around credits - make a mobile charging semi. Like the aircraft refueling fleet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanker_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanker_aircraft )) These can be carried by AAA tows and swapped to get you going. It should be the floor of the FRUNK and lif out like a suitcase.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
stetrain 3y ago
If you mean the 12V battery, same as any other car. If you mean using one Tesla to charge another when its main battery is empty, currently only the Cybertruck supports such power output. https://www.tesla.com/powershare https://www.tesla.com/powershare Some services like AAA do provide roadside charging via generator or battery pack onboard their service vehicles. Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places. I never ran out of gas either.
- hangonhn 3y ago
  > Some services like AAA do provide roadside charging via generator or battery pack onboard their service vehicles. > Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places. I never ran out of gas either. I think that's true of a lot of drivers but I bet if EV makers threw in 5 years of AAA recharging for free it would alleviate a lot of range anxiety for first time EV buyers. It wouldn't even be that expensive for the EV makers since the actual incidences are probably pretty low.
- samstave 3y ago
  >>>"Personally I haven't run out of charge in 4.5 years of driving an EV in all sorts of places" Neither have i, but if the cybertruck is any dystopian-minded-MadMax types' "bug out vehicle" -- this is going to suck. The cybertruck should come with a built in generator that can consume gas to charge your thing? One can take a cybertruck-type vehicle out into the woods of Alaska, and carry a bunch of extra fuel, but you can't bring an additional 5,000 LBS of batteries... I' dont have the energy (pun intended) to do it, but it would seem that one could make a simple spreadsheet to compare miles per gallon to miles per battery weight, such that you know that if you get 20 miles per gallon and a gallon weighs 8 pounds, vs you get how much distance out of the EV per weight?
  - stetrain 3y ago
    Where will you find refined unexpired gasoline in your MadMax apocalypse? A pack of solar panels you can set out in your bug-out camping zone seems more feasible to me. No dependency on ongoing supply chains. Just look at how quickly gas shortages start when a hurricane is aimed at Florida. And Tesla does sell a bolt-in range extending battery pack for their truck for $16,000 https://insideevs.com/news/699262/tesla-cybertruck-range-externder-weight/ https://insideevs.com/news/699262/tesla-cybertruck-range-ext...
    - bombcar 3y ago
      > Where will you find refined unexpired gasoline in your MadMax apocalypse? You get vehicles that can burn expired gasoline (or more likely, diesel and diesel-like derivates in a multi-fuel engine). For true apocalypse you want to go back to steam engines, those can run on water and wood.
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      > A pack of solar panels you can set out in your bug-out camping zone seems more feasible to me. I wonder how big those would have to be to be practical.
      - stetrain 3y ago
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  F150 Lightning also provides power output from its onboard big battery system
anonporridge 3y ago
Wow. That's actually a great idea. Perhaps Tesla maintains ownership of it so that you never have to worry about whether someone you're swapping with is unloading a bad battery on you. At a certain degradation, they just give you a new one. It's not even dead weight! Just extra battery capacity that's removable. Standardize the form factor and turn it into a uniform standard that every manufacturer can adopt.
- stetrain 3y ago
  If you extrapolate this to the whole pack you get Nio's swappable battery system. I don't see this scaling out well especially with trying to get multiple manufacturers onboard with standard packs. Every EV can accept 120V or 240V power, and that can be obtained in a lot of ways including generators, portable battery packs, or inverters on ICE or EV vehicles. A 240V output from one vehicle and a standard charging cord seems like a more universal solution to me than moving 100lb battery packs around. https://ir.lucidmotors.com/news-releases/news-release-details/introducing-rangexchange-innovative-new-feature-enabling-lucid https://ir.lucidmotors.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...
  - anonporridge 3y ago
    Fully swappable batteries seems untenable for a number of reasons. a) It seems unlikely that you can standardize the battery form factor between different models. You'll still have a handful of different standards between small, full size, and truck/suvs, and semi truck forms. It's been hard enough getting manufacturers to standardize on a single charging port. Battery form standardization would be another order of magnitude hard. b) Even if you somehow manage to do it, you're forever stuck on that form. Limits the experimentation and flexibility you have to develop for new use cases. Upgrading battery tech, like Tesla's switch to the bigger and more efficient 4680 in the cybertruck, would also get added friction since it wouldn't be compatible with older standards. c) Tesla at least is starting to turn the battery pack into a structural element to reduce mass. Unlikely you can do this and be swappable at the same time.
    - 3y ago
jillesvangurp 3y ago
With the Cybertruck, you can charge another EV with it it. And plugin some other equipment. Earlier Teslas don't have this. Apparently that's something that they are going to do more of going forward. Also, using your vehicle to power your home is becoming a popular use case. It's a big reason Ford's F-150 is so popular as well. And there are a few other cars that can do this. Anyway, the only way your battery would run out is if you willfully ignore all the helpful warnings and guidance to the nearest charger. Mostly people are smarter than that. There actually are a lot more cars getting stuck without petrol/diesel than EVs with dead batteries because EVs tend to give you more feedback on energy levels and usage. With a petrol car if you drive uphill or downhill, the indicated fuel levels actually change to be even less accurate than they normally are. When the needle hits zero, you might have 10 miles left or 20. Or just half a mile. Impossible to tell. That's how a lot of drivers get into trouble. The normal way to mitigate with both EVs and ICE cars is to just don't use the full range of the car and top up long before you get close to hitting zero. But if it does happen, then yes the solution is usually somebody with a portable battery driving up to you and giving you a few kwh; or just towing you to the nearest charger or power outlet. If that happens to you, you should feel a bit stupid and embarrassed for letting that happen. Absolutely no need for mitigating that. It's a problem you shouldn't have and the fix if you do is low cost and easy.
- samstave 3y ago
  >>Mostly people are smarter than that. Now you listen hear - I am SO smart that I have designed these devices to do the thinking for me.
Merad 3y ago
It's a neat idea but I think you're really underestimating how large the battery would need to be to provide any useful range. I have a Toyota RAV4 hybrid whose battery only provides < 1 mile range and its battery is basically suitcase sized. I'm not having any luck finding dimensions or weight but you can get some sense of the size from the pics in this eBay listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/266168009857 https://www.ebay.com/itm/266168009857
- bombcar 3y ago
  The Tesla S "small" size battery is 57KwH. A MX FUEL™ REDLITHIUM™ FORGE™ HD12.0 is a bit below a KwH, and is 10x5x7 and weighs 13 pounds.

lgleason 3y ago

Tesla oversells and under delivers on many things. Range is one and the other big one is the autosteer, FSD etc. which has gotten worse not better with subsequent releases. Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. LOL.

Hamuko 3y ago
>Then there was the crazy claim from Musk that the cars would be appreciating assets because of the software. They were also going to appreciate because Tesla cars would operate as autonomous robot taxis by end of 2020, and it wouldn't make sense to sell a car to a consumer for $35,000 when you could have it earning money 24/7 as a taxi.
- u320 3y ago
  It would make sense to sell it at that price if you had competitors. So Musk was essentially saying "we are going to create a monopoly and then milk the market for all it's worth". I found it weird that nobody criticised him for that back then.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    Well, the competitors in this case would've been taxi companies, not other car companies. The case was basically that for every $35k Model 3 that comes off the lot can be sold for a profit up to $35k, or be added to the robotaxi fleet where it can generate whatever revenue it can produce. For example, if every Model 3 could generate $5/h of profit, then running it 24/7/365 would be $44k.
    - sliken 3y ago
      I suspect 24/7 use of a tesla would consume most of it's useful life in 1 year. Also electricity isn't free so that's going to be a substantial code and likely several sets of tires.
anonporridge 3y ago

stetrain 3y ago

> In fact, nothing changed on the vehicles themselves, except the way range is now calculated. Specifically, the EPA now mandates that all EV manufacturers test acceleration and ride height modes in both best and worst-case scenarios. This makes almost all EVs lose range and efficiency, although the changes were introduced to better reflect real-world range performance. > The new system is applicable to vehicles testing for the 2024 model year and later. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-my2024-updates-less-range-new-colors-different-steering-wheels-and-no-creep-mode-227187.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-my2024-updates-less... This is a slight improvement but still EPA testing is both a poor match to actual road tripping (where people often care about EV range) and can be very inconsistent between vehicles due to the number of options automakers have in choosing which cycles they will test with and how they use those results. The EPA's standard "highway" driving cycle averages 48 mph. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/heres-how-the-epa-calculates-how-far-an-ev-can-go-on-a-full-charge/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/heres-how-the-epa-calcu...

ajross 3y ago
It's worth pointing out that the only international alternative to the EPA efficiency cycle for EVs is WLTP, which produces even more optimistic range numbers. We can't win. If you ask the average person on the street the right way to measure "EV range", they'd give you an answer (e.g. "drive like you do in the real world") that looks very much like what the EPA tests. If you ask that same person if their car goes as far as it claims, they'll say "no", because they're thinking about highway range at 75mph.
- stetrain 3y ago
  My understanding is that WLPT is more consistent across manufacturers but as you say provides higher range numbers that won't match 70mph+ highway driving. ICE cars are rated in City MPG and Highway MPG, and both are displayed on the window sticker. The EPA does test and compute City and Highway efficiency for EVs but then distills this into one combined range number for the sticker. My suggestion would be to display separate City and Highway range figures for all EVs, adjust the Highway cycle to reflect 70mph highway driving, and combine all of the current options into a single set of test cycles that all manufacturers must use. The current situation where different manufacturers use different test cycles and adjustment factors doesn't seem good for consumers at all.

gwbas1c 3y ago

The longest I've gone on a single charge was ~270 miles in my Model 3 while it was under a year old. I don't remember how much range I had when I got home, but if I was going anywhere further I would have stopped to charge. The big issue that I have with range in my Model 3 is tires: I thought the tire shop was putting on the same tires that the car came with, but they didn't. My 2nd set of tires really killed the range. (I should have argued with the tire shop when I picked up the car, but I didn't.)

jeffbee 3y ago
Wheels and tires make a huge huge difference on the margin for cars that are already pretty efficient. But Tesla doesn't ship particularly efficient wheels and tires from the factory, do they? When I was shopping for them they seemed to universally ship all-season performance tires, not the kinds of efficiency tires you see on other EVs and hybrids. I assumed that they were doing that because the rest of their platform is already so much more efficient than others. The big wheel package available on my hybrid kills the MPG, and I am happier with the 16" wheels. But Tesla doesn't offer anything under 18" as I recall.

larrymyers 3y ago

I've owned a Model Y for about a year now, and range anxiety isn't a big deal on road trips as long as you're using the built in nav for your destination. The nav calculated estimations tend to be very accurate, within a few percent when it determines the battery remaining, and it'll add in supercharger stops as needed. I definitely have to stop more in the winter time on road trips, but that's just the nature of how EVs work. On the upside Tesla puts superchargers in spots that make it easy to take a break for a rest stop anyway. I do miss how quick gas station stops are with ICE cars when doing a road trip, especially if you're on a constrained schedule, but the benefits of having the EV have outweighed it so far, especially with most of my daily miles being in the city (where the EV really shines).

cebert 3y ago
Do you live in a warm state or a cold state? I live in Michigan and during the winter range is reduced considerably. This is fine for my local commute, but is quite painful when you want to drive “up North” to go skiing. There isn’t a lot of charging infrastructure and coupled with the reduced range, longer trips can be inconvenient.
- larrymyers 3y ago
  Driving around the midwest in the winter time I find I get about 200 miles to the full charge. The cold weather, increased wind speeds, and need to run the heater all eat into the range substantially. I hear you about wanting to drive up north for outdoor winter sports. It requires a lot more planning once north of Grand Rapids to make sure you won't end up stranded. Many times I'll stop at a supercharger early just to take advantage of the battery heating the charging provides. That alone makes the rest of the trip more efficient, and I can get back below 300 wh/mi. The heated seats and steering wheel also make a big difference and allow the heat pump to not have to do so much work.
paxys 3y ago
This is key, because not every mile driven is the same. If you see "Model Y has a range of 300 miles" and set out to drive 300 miles you are going to have a problem. The temperature, wind speed/direction, humidity, pressure, cloud cover, altitude, uphill/downhill driving, vehicle weight, battery quality, tire tread, AC use, average speed... all make a huge difference. The nav system does take these into account and gives you a much more realistic number.

blindriver 3y ago

My maximum range on my 16 month old Model Y is down 10% from when I first purchased it. I don't know if that's "normal" but it sure feels like I got scammed, that's for sure.

bombcar 3y ago
Is that displayed range (including maybe software updates to change what is displayed) or is that "when I bought it, I could drive this far before it died" compared to "now I can't get that far"?
- blindriver 3y ago
  Displayed range. If a software update changed what is displayed to be more accurate, that is equally as deceitful.
wilg 3y ago
Degradation is supposed to be 12% after 200,000 miles: https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradat... But, like all batteries they degrade fastest at the beginning. Not sure how typical your situation is. How many miles?
- blindriver 3y ago
  25,000 miles.
ankushnarula 3y ago
My Model Y LR is roughly the same age (24K miles) and I lost about 8.5% capacity. Pretty sure this is the nature of current lithium battery tech, according to many Tesla owner reports. From what I have gathered, the loss rate will slow and gradually level out above 70% for much of the ten year battery warranty, as long as you follow Tesla’s guidance on battery health.
zuccs 3y ago
Some good fleet data: https://www.tessie.com/stats https://www.tessie.com/stats

OJFord 3y ago

It'd be nice if they just published real data, the median (& quartiles perhaps) range drivers are actually getting.

bombcar 3y ago
Gamify it, so you can compete with other drives to get better range/mileage!
borkyborkbork 3y ago
You can get 20%+ more mileage than EPA on a single charge when doing city driving. I consistently get 380 miles+ on my Model Y long range.
- OJFord 3y ago
  AIUI they have all the data to break it down like that too?

z2 3y ago

Perhaps worth pointing out that the big direction depends on each jurisdiction's guidelines for claiming range. The EPA in the US and Canada seems closest to reality, while the long range version in Germany still shows 533km/331mi, Japan shows 605km/376mi while China has 688km/427mi.

alienicecream 3y ago

My diesel Mercedes SUV has a 900 km range and filling up takes 5 minutes, why would I ever buy an EV.

borkyborkbork 3y ago
Because I've gone 6 months with my EV charging only in my garage. I have never needed to go anywhere to "fill it up". Also, where I live I have to drive 15 minutes each way to do the 5 minute fill up. I am saving 35 minutes every week by not having to go somewhere to fill my gas.
- alienicecream 3y ago
  Don't you need to have a 220V circuit put in? And if you go anywhere that's more than 120 miles away, now you have to plan for a charging stop and make sure there's one on your route right? With ICE I don't have to worry about any of that.
  - xedeon 3y ago
    > With ICE I don't have to worry about any of that. You don’t really do that with EVs either. The navigation system takes all of that into account, including live metrics such as temperature, wind, weather, and elevation. It takes the guesswork out of non-trivial tasks. The only valid issue is the poorly maintained Electrify America chargers for non-Tesla EVs. But that’s about to change in the U.S., since pretty much everyone is adopting the NACS/SAE J340 Standard. This will make them compatible with Tesla Superchargers. Apps like ABRP also exist, which are even compatible with level 2 charging: https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
  - gergi137 3y ago
    I can add about 50 miles of range overnight on a standard 120V outlet which is more than enough most of the time. For longer trips back-to-back, a 220V circuit would be really nice to fully re-charge overnight but its absolutely not necessary.