4 ms·

> It's interesting to compare Dart, which has zero uptake outside Flutter Caveat: I work on Dart. I don't see that that's a very damning critique of Dart. Eve

> It's interesting to compare Dart, which has zero uptake outside Flutter Caveat: I work on Dart. I don't see that that's a very damning critique of Dart. Every language needs libraries/frameworks to be suited for a domain. Flutter is a framework for writing client apps in Dart. Without Flutter, no matter how much you like Dart the language, you'd be spending a hell of a lot of time just figuring out how to get pixels on screen on Android and iOS. Few people have the desire or time for that. Anyone writing applications builds on a stack of libraries and frameworks. The only difference I see between Go and Dart with Flutter is that Go's domain libraries for networking, serialization, crypto and other stuff you need for servers are in the standard library. Dart has a bunch of basics in the built in libraries like collections and asynchrony, but the domain-specific stuff relies on external packages like Flutter. That's in large part because Dart has had a robust package management story from very early on: many "core" libraries written and maintained by the Dart team are still shipped using the package manager instead of being built-in libraries because it makes them much easier to evolve. I prefer that Flutter isn't baked into Dart's standard libraries, because UI frameworks tend to be shorter-lived than languages. Flutter is wonderful, but I wouldn't be surprised if twenty years from now something better comes along. When that happens, it will be easier for Dart users to adopt it and not use Flutter because Flutter isn't baked in.

iainmerrick 3y ago
I don’t disagree with all that but it seems tangential to the point being made, that people just aren’t using Dart except for Flutter apps. So compared to Go it’s very much a niche language (although maybe it’s a really big niche, I don’t know).
- copx 3y ago
  One might as well say "People just aren't using Go except for server apps."
  - iainmerrick 3y ago
    Go is used for command-line tools too, e.g. esbuild. It's a question of whether the tail is wagging the dog. Flutter is more important than Dart, unless Dart finds a way to expand into another niche. I don't think any one Go framework is bigger than the language itself (even if you were to include the standard library networking utils as a framework).
    - munificent 3y ago
      By that same token, Go's standard library and runtime is more important than Go. Is that an indictment of Go, or just an observation that a usable platform is an interconnected set of tools?
      - iainmerrick 3y ago
        Hmm, I can't quite tell if we're disagreeing or not! I guess my point is that, yes, in each case there's an interconnected set of tools, and in the case of Go it's called "Go" or "Golang". It's a GC language with good kernel bindings but poor interop otherwise, so it's good for low-level stuff that runs directly on top of a kernel, like network servers and CLI tools. In the Dart case the interconnected set of things is called "Flutter" and it's a cross-platform UI toolkit that happens to use its own language. Exactly the same category as Qt, in fact -- I can't even remember what Qt's special C++ variant is called, if it even has a name. I'm not aware of Qt's C++ extensions being used anywhere else. You could definitely argue that they're both in a niche, and the UI niche is a nice big one. It feels like Dart could expand to other areas (more easily than Go could be used for a UI) but for whatever reason it hasn't. Similar to server-side Swift.

iainmerrick 3y ago

I don’t disagree with all that but it seems tangential to the point being made, that people just aren’t using Dart except for Flutter apps. So compared to Go it’s very much a niche language (although maybe it’s a really big niche, I don’t know).

copx 3y ago
One might as well say "People just aren't using Go except for server apps."
- iainmerrick 3y ago
  Go is used for command-line tools too, e.g. esbuild. It's a question of whether the tail is wagging the dog. Flutter is more important than Dart, unless Dart finds a way to expand into another niche. I don't think any one Go framework is bigger than the language itself (even if you were to include the standard library networking utils as a framework).
  - munificent 3y ago
    By that same token, Go's standard library and runtime is more important than Go. Is that an indictment of Go, or just an observation that a usable platform is an interconnected set of tools?
    - iainmerrick 3y ago
      Hmm, I can't quite tell if we're disagreeing or not! I guess my point is that, yes, in each case there's an interconnected set of tools, and in the case of Go it's called "Go" or "Golang". It's a GC language with good kernel bindings but poor interop otherwise, so it's good for low-level stuff that runs directly on top of a kernel, like network servers and CLI tools. In the Dart case the interconnected set of things is called "Flutter" and it's a cross-platform UI toolkit that happens to use its own language. Exactly the same category as Qt, in fact -- I can't even remember what Qt's special C++ variant is called, if it even has a name. I'm not aware of Qt's C++ extensions being used anywhere else. You could definitely argue that they're both in a niche, and the UI niche is a nice big one. It feels like Dart could expand to other areas (more easily than Go could be used for a UI) but for whatever reason it hasn't. Similar to server-side Swift.