4 ms·

On the casino I used to run, I started a pilot program with a homemade poker bot (labeled as such, and only deployed on poker tables labeled as "bot friendly").

On the casino I used to run, I started a pilot program with a homemade poker bot (labeled as such, and only deployed on poker tables labeled as "bot friendly"). The bot had no set model of its own. It was designed to mimic specific players on the casino, regulars who had played 10,000+ hands and who agreed to have their history cloned, by ingesting their entire hand/betting history and looking for what they had done in similar scenarios as far as hole card value, probability, position, pot odds, table "heat" (a rolling average of over- or under-betting from other players in the previous hands based on what they showed if they showed down), etc. I got a few good players to agree to let me take all their data and make poker clones of them. What was really funny was watching them get baffled and often beaten in heads-up play against their doppelgangers. The bot never had more information about the game than any other player. But its betting style varied wildly depending on who it was based on. As a side, this also helped me build a real-time system to monitor potential collusion based on betting patterns that deviated from a player's normal behavior at times when they were sitting at the same table as someone else whose patterns deviated in their presence.

digdugdirk 3y ago
"On the casino I used to run"? That might be the most casual intro to what sounds like a fascinating corner of the internet I never experienced. Do you have any other interesting stories or references to that time of your life?
- noduerme 3y ago
  I do, and I don't mind showing you them if you're interested, but why do you care? ah fuckit. SO yeah, I lived outside the US and ran a bitcoin casino for some years for non-US players, which was blocked to US IP ranges and required IDs to eliminate US customers (even though Bitcoin gambling still wasn't officially illegal at the time). My general idea was to make a casino for smart people who liked puzzles, so to that end I built games that would let people have an even-money chance if they played the game perfectly. The coolest thing that came out of this was one of my players went on to build an escape room in the Netherlands that used one of my games as a puzzle to solve to get out of the room. Here's some stuff from that casino (it was active from about 2010 to 2013). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV40hu9J38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV40hu9J38 https://youtu.be/rkRfSAtCYAw https://youtu.be/rkRfSAtCYAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4GqCAAsmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4GqCAAsmo
  - lagniappe 3y ago
    Doug?
    - noduerme 3y ago
      I am not named Doug. There was a player named Doug, if I recall correctly, who with his wife became the focus of a collusion investigation which he denied, turning into a major war where he was ultimately banned... don't know if that's what you're referring to, but that's what jumped to my mind.
      - lagniappe 3y ago
        Small world :)
- noduerme 3y ago
  I was the lone coder and artist for all those games, btw. And the whole platform. As well as running the casino daily and doing all tech and customer support by myself for three years, 24/7 while rolling out updates and new games. And it's not easy to roll out bug fixes when you're dealing with real money and lots of online players arguing in your chat rooms! My advice to anyone is not to get into that industry, even though you can make any game you want and people love the games and the business model sounds way better on paper than selling your games through an app store... the civilized world has ganged up to make sure you won't succeed, or that if you do you'll either kick all your money back through licensing schemes or else be arrested. It's basically too good to be true and too profitable. You can't make money at it unless you're in the club.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
quickthrower2 3y ago
Half of the work of running a gambling site is making sure all your customers are losers. If they are consistently winning (cheating or not) you want to get rid of them. Unless you are purely running a "pool" of some kind (think Betfair).
- qup 3y ago
  In poker, all the players are profitable to the house. I think it's up for debate whether it's good for poker rooms to get rid of winners, but if there was a benefit, it would be an indirect benefit, not a direct one.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    It depends how prolific they are. Someone running a winning bot farm is taking more money from the losers than the house would be if the losers kept winning/losing against each other. This assumes that the house wants losers to win alot to stay addicted. If they just get beaten all the time they might quit sooner, they may also run out of money sooner. A bit like how lottery tickets costing $1 will make you win $1, $2 etc. prizes so you buy another ticket and so increase the revenue (a percentage of which is profit), the same for the house. 2 losers winning money off each other all night means they both lose and gave lots of money to the house. A winner taking the 2 losers money in a fell swoop means a lot less money for the house.
    - noduerme 3y ago
      er, every hand played in poker is profitable for the house (except for the ones where all players fold before the flop, prior to which no rake is taken). Bots, etc. don't matter. The only reason to prevent bots and collusion and other forms of mischief is to make your poker room a good place for people to play.
      - kawzeg 3y ago
        I think the point the poster you're responding to was making is this: If people lose their money quickly to bots/collusion/cheating (or simply skilled players), they will quickly run out of money. If they play each other, they can play more hands, so more profit for the casino. To exemplify the two extremes, assuming 10% rake: Player A has $10, and loses $1 every hand: after 10 hands, he's broke and $1 went to the casino. Player B and Player C are equally skilled and equally lucky. They keep playing $1 pots, trading back and forth. After twenty hands, both have still have $9 while the casino already earned $2. They could essentially keep going until they have given all their money to the casino.

digdugdirk 3y ago

"On the casino I used to run"? That might be the most casual intro to what sounds like a fascinating corner of the internet I never experienced. Do you have any other interesting stories or references to that time of your life?

noduerme 3y ago
I do, and I don't mind showing you them if you're interested, but why do you care? ah fuckit. SO yeah, I lived outside the US and ran a bitcoin casino for some years for non-US players, which was blocked to US IP ranges and required IDs to eliminate US customers (even though Bitcoin gambling still wasn't officially illegal at the time). My general idea was to make a casino for smart people who liked puzzles, so to that end I built games that would let people have an even-money chance if they played the game perfectly. The coolest thing that came out of this was one of my players went on to build an escape room in the Netherlands that used one of my games as a puzzle to solve to get out of the room. Here's some stuff from that casino (it was active from about 2010 to 2013). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV40hu9J38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV40hu9J38 https://youtu.be/rkRfSAtCYAw https://youtu.be/rkRfSAtCYAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4GqCAAsmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4GqCAAsmo
- lagniappe 3y ago
  Doug?
  - noduerme 3y ago
    I am not named Doug. There was a player named Doug, if I recall correctly, who with his wife became the focus of a collusion investigation which he denied, turning into a major war where he was ultimately banned... don't know if that's what you're referring to, but that's what jumped to my mind.
    - lagniappe 3y ago
      Small world :)
noduerme 3y ago
I was the lone coder and artist for all those games, btw. And the whole platform. As well as running the casino daily and doing all tech and customer support by myself for three years, 24/7 while rolling out updates and new games. And it's not easy to roll out bug fixes when you're dealing with real money and lots of online players arguing in your chat rooms! My advice to anyone is not to get into that industry, even though you can make any game you want and people love the games and the business model sounds way better on paper than selling your games through an app store... the civilized world has ganged up to make sure you won't succeed, or that if you do you'll either kick all your money back through licensing schemes or else be arrested. It's basically too good to be true and too profitable. You can't make money at it unless you're in the club.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

quickthrower2 3y ago

Half of the work of running a gambling site is making sure all your customers are losers. If they are consistently winning (cheating or not) you want to get rid of them. Unless you are purely running a "pool" of some kind (think Betfair).

qup 3y ago
In poker, all the players are profitable to the house. I think it's up for debate whether it's good for poker rooms to get rid of winners, but if there was a benefit, it would be an indirect benefit, not a direct one.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  It depends how prolific they are. Someone running a winning bot farm is taking more money from the losers than the house would be if the losers kept winning/losing against each other. This assumes that the house wants losers to win alot to stay addicted. If they just get beaten all the time they might quit sooner, they may also run out of money sooner. A bit like how lottery tickets costing $1 will make you win $1, $2 etc. prizes so you buy another ticket and so increase the revenue (a percentage of which is profit), the same for the house. 2 losers winning money off each other all night means they both lose and gave lots of money to the house. A winner taking the 2 losers money in a fell swoop means a lot less money for the house.
  - noduerme 3y ago
    er, every hand played in poker is profitable for the house (except for the ones where all players fold before the flop, prior to which no rake is taken). Bots, etc. don't matter. The only reason to prevent bots and collusion and other forms of mischief is to make your poker room a good place for people to play.
    - kawzeg 3y ago
      I think the point the poster you're responding to was making is this: If people lose their money quickly to bots/collusion/cheating (or simply skilled players), they will quickly run out of money. If they play each other, they can play more hands, so more profit for the casino. To exemplify the two extremes, assuming 10% rake: Player A has $10, and loses $1 every hand: after 10 hands, he's broke and $1 went to the casino. Player B and Player C are equally skilled and equally lucky. They keep playing $1 pots, trading back and forth. After twenty hands, both have still have $9 while the casino already earned $2. They could essentially keep going until they have given all their money to the casino.