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Bullshit, and you know it. I want a computer with completely open schematics, completely open firmware and uCode, GPUs with no ties to the entertainment industr

Bullshit, and you know it. I want a computer with completely open schematics, completely open firmware and uCode, GPUs with no ties to the entertainment industry, and processors that don't have baked in "ring -3"s. I want cars I can wrench on, and software I can trust. I want things that are mine first, not the manufacturers. It. Will. Not. Happen. Short of doing it ourselves, because businesses can't spawn around those values. So to hell with you pinning this on "well it's the consumers fault". To hell with that. The conspicuously absent feature is entirely a byproduct of industry. Not consumers. No one can consume what "industry" decides is bad for business.

wintogreen74 3y ago
And I think most consumers don't want these things. When given the choice they've consistently taken cost and convenience over openness, privacy or durability.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
The original post states they choose to purchase Apple products instead of System76, and they choose to purchase from Costco instead of farmers markets. You might want certain things, but that does not mean you can afford to pay the price that would be sufficient to serve the market (since there would be so few like you). Consumers, as a group, will most likely choose price and getting the job done quickly. Also, some things in life might just be so technically advanced that you will not find all the optionality you want.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> It. Will. Not. Happen. Short of doing it ourselves, because businesses can't spawn around those values. What do you think "doing it ourselves" is? If you want open hardware and nobody makes it, you make it, or do a Go Fund Me etc. Then somebody makes it. Notwithstanding what other people say, customers do actually prefer these things, if nothing else because they cost less. Once somebody makes a free and open chip design, companies will prefer to put that chip design in their devices because then they don't have to pay for one and don't have to deal with BS where their own customers want updates but upstream provides neither updates nor documentation. Because now upstream is a community anybody can participate in that keeps providing updates for 20+ years. Customers don't prefer these things only when they're forced into an unnecessary trade off against something else. You want a Ford or Toyota running open source software but your choices are a closed source product in mass production or a kit car you have to assemble from parts. You don't want to assemble it from parts so you pick the first one. But that only sustains as long as nobody is making a competitive mass-produced car which is open source. As soon as you have one, the permissionlessness is an advantage. Repairs are cheaper so TCO is lower so Consumer's Reports tells normies to buy it. Then the competition has to do the same thing because it's better. Consolidated markets are a problem. If you wanted to do "iPhone, but open" you can't just glue a screen to a RISC-V CPU, the chip has to be competitive and have third party apps etc. etc. But not everything is like that. If you wanted to do "desktop PC, but open hardware," that's the sort of thing people are actively working on and could plausibly succeed. So support them, contribute, and buy it when it's available, because it's not impossible.

wintogreen74 3y ago

And I think most consumers don't want these things. When given the choice they've consistently taken cost and convenience over openness, privacy or durability.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

The original post states they choose to purchase Apple products instead of System76, and they choose to purchase from Costco instead of farmers markets. You might want certain things, but that does not mean you can afford to pay the price that would be sufficient to serve the market (since there would be so few like you). Consumers, as a group, will most likely choose price and getting the job done quickly. Also, some things in life might just be so technically advanced that you will not find all the optionality you want.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> It. Will. Not. Happen. Short of doing it ourselves, because businesses can't spawn around those values. What do you think "doing it ourselves" is? If you want open hardware and nobody makes it, you make it, or do a Go Fund Me etc. Then somebody makes it. Notwithstanding what other people say, customers do actually prefer these things, if nothing else because they cost less. Once somebody makes a free and open chip design, companies will prefer to put that chip design in their devices because then they don't have to pay for one and don't have to deal with BS where their own customers want updates but upstream provides neither updates nor documentation. Because now upstream is a community anybody can participate in that keeps providing updates for 20+ years. Customers don't prefer these things only when they're forced into an unnecessary trade off against something else. You want a Ford or Toyota running open source software but your choices are a closed source product in mass production or a kit car you have to assemble from parts. You don't want to assemble it from parts so you pick the first one. But that only sustains as long as nobody is making a competitive mass-produced car which is open source. As soon as you have one, the permissionlessness is an advantage. Repairs are cheaper so TCO is lower so Consumer's Reports tells normies to buy it. Then the competition has to do the same thing because it's better. Consolidated markets are a problem. If you wanted to do "iPhone, but open" you can't just glue a screen to a RISC-V CPU, the chip has to be competitive and have third party apps etc. etc. But not everything is like that. If you wanted to do "desktop PC, but open hardware," that's the sort of thing people are actively working on and could plausibly succeed. So support them, contribute, and buy it when it's available, because it's not impossible.