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Software "engineering" (little to no actual engineering in this area) is still in its infancy. Civil and mechanical engineering are millenia old and we still ha

Software "engineering" (little to no actual engineering in this area) is still in its infancy. Civil and mechanical engineering are millenia old and we still had the Tacoma Narrows Bridge less than a hundred years ago; electrical engineering is roughly a century old and things still self-ignite on the regular, and there are all kinds of weird and poorly understood quantum thingoes at the really small scales; software engineering is just decades old. Everything that's written on the subject -- every bit of research, fad, and personal anecdote -- is just one more experiment flailing around in the darkness while we try to figure out what it means to "engineer" software. I don't think that makes research about it valueless. Some is good, some is not, some will get revised over time because science and engineering gradually tack towards discovering natural laws. But also, yes, an enormous amount of human effort is wasted on following practices that are often not well-founded.

egeozcan 3y ago
> Everything that's written on the subject -- every bit of research, fad, and personal anecdote -- is just one more experiment flailing around in the darkness while we try to figure out what it means to "engineer" software. I think Ian Sommerville does a pretty good job in the book "Software Engineering" (I have the 10th edition), from the section 1.1.1: > Software engineering is an engineering discipline that is concerned with all aspects of software production from the early stages of system specification through to maintaining the system after it has gone into use. In this definition, there are two key phrases: > 1. Engineering discipline: Engineers make things work. They apply theories, methods, and tools where these are appropriate. However, they use them selectively and always try to discover solutions to problems even when there are no applicable theories and methods. Engineers also recognize that they must work within organizational and financial constraints, and they must look for solutions within these constraints. > 2. All aspects of software production: Software engineering is not just concerned with the technical processes of software development. It also includes activities such as software project management and the development of tools, methods, and theories to support software development. These quotes don't do it justice. I'd really recommend this book.
- thaumaturgy 3y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation! I've added it to my to-read list. I will note though that "Changes from the 9th edition" on page 4 reads to me like it supports my point moreso than contradicts it. I'd also add my favorite quote about engineering, "any idiot can build a bridge that stands; it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands". That's the engineering that is as yet unsettled in software. Any of us, given enough time and financial support, can eventually build some software that does something. Approximately none of us however can agree on the right way to build such a thing (where "right way" means something like "most efficient, cost-effective, and future-proof, according to the users' and owners' needs and specifications"). Hell, pick 10 people from HN and you'll get 12 different recommendations for which language to use.
  - pas 3y ago
    > 12 language Well, as this is also depends on parameters. What languages the team members know, what languages the problem domain maps to well, how much capital do we have, what's the schedule, what's the expected rate of modifications on the system, load, security and safety hardening requirements. All bridges, tunnels, houses, roads, pipes, and dams are more similar than websites, Android, databases, videogames, and embedded software. Mostly because the former had hundreds of years to settle down somewhat. (And of course there are huge advances due to materials science advances and because of better structural modeling, due to software advances.) And that settling down allows for time to develop models for the common scenarios. That's why there are engineering standards (building codes).
    - solardev 3y ago
      > All bridges, tunnels, houses, roads, pipes, and dams are more similar than websites, Android, databases, videogames, and embedded software. Are you sure about this? I feel like somewhere between "dirt driveway I dug out last weekend" and the Hoover Dam, they would've had to figure some hard shit out. I could probably dig a tunnel with a shovel, but it wouldn't survive the next rain, much less be able to go under the ocean or support a vacuum. I mean, outsiders probably couldn't tell apart a WordPress template from whatever gee-whiz app. It's all just computer stuff. And as a web dev, I could probably figure out an Android app given a weekend or two, or learn a new SQL dialect in a few hours. I would have no idea how to, say, frame a window for a house or calculate the right materials and techniques to move water from here to there, even to Roman standards.

egeozcan 3y ago

> Everything that's written on the subject -- every bit of research, fad, and personal anecdote -- is just one more experiment flailing around in the darkness while we try to figure out what it means to "engineer" software. I think Ian Sommerville does a pretty good job in the book "Software Engineering" (I have the 10th edition), from the section 1.1.1: > Software engineering is an engineering discipline that is concerned with all aspects of software production from the early stages of system specification through to maintaining the system after it has gone into use. In this definition, there are two key phrases: > 1. Engineering discipline: Engineers make things work. They apply theories, methods, and tools where these are appropriate. However, they use them selectively and always try to discover solutions to problems even when there are no applicable theories and methods. Engineers also recognize that they must work within organizational and financial constraints, and they must look for solutions within these constraints. > 2. All aspects of software production: Software engineering is not just concerned with the technical processes of software development. It also includes activities such as software project management and the development of tools, methods, and theories to support software development. These quotes don't do it justice. I'd really recommend this book.

thaumaturgy 3y ago
Thanks for the recommendation! I've added it to my to-read list. I will note though that "Changes from the 9th edition" on page 4 reads to me like it supports my point moreso than contradicts it. I'd also add my favorite quote about engineering, "any idiot can build a bridge that stands; it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands". That's the engineering that is as yet unsettled in software. Any of us, given enough time and financial support, can eventually build some software that does something. Approximately none of us however can agree on the right way to build such a thing (where "right way" means something like "most efficient, cost-effective, and future-proof, according to the users' and owners' needs and specifications"). Hell, pick 10 people from HN and you'll get 12 different recommendations for which language to use.
- pas 3y ago
  > 12 language Well, as this is also depends on parameters. What languages the team members know, what languages the problem domain maps to well, how much capital do we have, what's the schedule, what's the expected rate of modifications on the system, load, security and safety hardening requirements. All bridges, tunnels, houses, roads, pipes, and dams are more similar than websites, Android, databases, videogames, and embedded software. Mostly because the former had hundreds of years to settle down somewhat. (And of course there are huge advances due to materials science advances and because of better structural modeling, due to software advances.) And that settling down allows for time to develop models for the common scenarios. That's why there are engineering standards (building codes).
  - solardev 3y ago
    > All bridges, tunnels, houses, roads, pipes, and dams are more similar than websites, Android, databases, videogames, and embedded software. Are you sure about this? I feel like somewhere between "dirt driveway I dug out last weekend" and the Hoover Dam, they would've had to figure some hard shit out. I could probably dig a tunnel with a shovel, but it wouldn't survive the next rain, much less be able to go under the ocean or support a vacuum. I mean, outsiders probably couldn't tell apart a WordPress template from whatever gee-whiz app. It's all just computer stuff. And as a web dev, I could probably figure out an Android app given a weekend or two, or learn a new SQL dialect in a few hours. I would have no idea how to, say, frame a window for a house or calculate the right materials and techniques to move water from here to there, even to Roman standards.